Topic suggested by Idhayan on Fri Sep 25 19:29:30 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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Oru puthiya thamizh vaarthai thinamum ingae post seithaa evalavu nalla |
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: venkat (@ vectra2.riken.go.jp)
on: Wed Oct 27 19:44:24
Chnadra,
Yes, in tamil both maaNikkam and kempu refer to ruby, but there is a subtle difference. Chemically they both are Al_{2}O_{3}, with different doping (parts per billion levels) of other substances, it is the dopant that gives the color and other useful physical properties (like lasing action in ruby laser). May be our ancestors (like macaathuvaan) knew this and coined two words maanickam and kempu and used them with care, we seem to have lost that accuracy!!!
Diamond (vairam) is hard, my analogy was to say that even if they reckon skt to diamond, it should have got abraded by soft languages (!) like tamil (remember the soft survives ultimately, becomes useful while the diamond tool has to be abanandoned). I invoked the analogy sarcastically as some of my 'learned' friends used to say in the manippravaaLam it is skt the diamond and tamil the dark karukamaNi.
- From: nadaadhoor vEnkatan (@ inehou-pxy04.compaq.com)
on: Mon Nov 1 11:44:43
dheepaavaLi = dheepa(m) + aavaLi
(line of lights)
where,
otl AvaLi AvaLi * 1. row, range, series; 2. continuous line, lineage, dynasty
Is 'aavaLi' a sanskrit word ?? Does anybody know references to the word 'aavaLi' in any old Tamil literature ???
- From: JayBee (@ sp-69-75.tm.net.my)
on: Mon Nov 1 18:39:00
The word "Deepa AavaLi" was used by the Jains when they commemorated the passing away of their last Thiirthangkara Mahavira by having rows of light.
In many parts of North India, invitation to the Goddess of Prosperity, Lakshmi was done by the display of rows of light.
The Tamils used rows of light during the Kaarthigai Festival.
DeepavaLi originated from North India .
- From: Pas (@ pas.dialup.cs.toronto.edu)
on: Mon Nov 1 21:03:44
I would guess that AvaLi is a Sanskrit word.It certainly is in Sanskrit dictionaries. ( From that itself we can't conclude anything about its origin). But there are certainly many Sanskrit usages of AvaLi: like 'danthaavaLi'(row of teeth),'dhUmaavaLi'(cloud of smoke),'rathnaavaLi'(necklace of gems), 'vamsaavaLi' etc.
Kaarthigai viLakku vazipaadu is certainly very old in South India. I think Sambanthar in the pathigam where he prays to Siva to give life to pUmpaavai says: "kaarththigai viLakkIdu kaaNaathE pOthiyO"... . I believe cIvakacinthaamaNi, kaar naaRpathu, kaLavazi naaRpathu etc also mention kaarththigai. But I don't recall any ancient Tamil literature mentioning AvaLi.or DeepaavaLi .. even in connection with Kaarththigai. So I think that AvaLi , from all the above, is a Sanskrit word and DeepAvaLi itself came from North India.
- From: Chandra (@ user-38lca2j.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Mon Nov 1 23:00:58
Surely, we cannot conclude much from the presence of a word in teh dictionary of Skt. After all, the word "thAmarasa" meaning "lotus" is also in Skt. But it has been shown as a solid example of Skt having borrowed from Dravidian.
Actually Skt even has nIr(water as in nIrajA = lotus = "born in water"), mIn (fish) etc. The list is very very very long.
- From: vEnkatan (@ 1cust162.tnt13.hou3.da.uu.net)
on: Mon Nov 1 23:18:17
JayBee/Pas/Chandra : Thanks a lot for your input.
JayBee : While searching for Dheepaavali on the net, I happened to read one of your articles which talked about the Theerthankarar and Dheepaavali. The article was very informative ;-)
Chandra : Probably we can open a new thread to collect all the words that went from Dravidian languages to Sanskrit !!
- From: Pas (@ pas.dialup.cs.toronto.edu)
on: Tue Nov 2 09:56:41
Chandra,
I agree with you ..that is why I said that the presence of a word (in a Tamil or Sanskrit dictionary) is not indicative of its origin. In this case all the words using AvaLi I could think of seem to occur only in Sanskrit literature (including DeepAvaLi itself which is generally agreed to come from North India) and I could not recall even *one case* of such usage in early Tamil literature , Hence I guessed that the word is Sanskrit. Of course, my exposure to Tamil literature is very limited nor am I a linguistic scholar; and I was basing my observations only on many Tamil articles I have read over the years on the festival DeepaavaLi and the stories connected with it. As I recall none mentioned the word 'AvaLi' occurring in any early Tamil work.(though the practice of Dheepaa worship itself is very ancient, as I mentioned) Perhaps we need more research to find the occurrence of such a word in early Tamil literature.Or perhaps you( or JayBee or others) can inform me of such an occurrence ; is there even one instance of the word 'AvaLi' in ancient Tamil literature? if so,when did the word first occur in Tamil lierature? Do scholars like 'DevanEyap paavaaNar' discuss the origin of this word? Then I think there can be an investigation about the root word, related words etc to establish the origin.If the word has not been used by early Tamil literature at all , I think the chance of its being of Tamil origin is very slim. Don't you agree?
- From: just kidding (@ franck.crhc.uiuc.edu)
on: Tue Nov 2 10:00:17
I could not recall even *one case* of such usage in early Tamil literature
soor + aavaLi = sooraavaLi?
:-))))))))
- From: Gokul (@ bhxrr1.flpk.pwcglobal.com)
on: Tue Nov 2 10:28:55
¾üº¡ö× = Subjectivity
- From: Vidhya (@ 204.164.111.183)
on: Tue Nov 2 11:33:10
JK: vaLi = kaatru. sutri varum vaLi --> sooravaLi.
just guesing..
- From: Chandra (@ user-38lc5qg.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Fri Nov 5 16:33:06
"Cooling glasses" (or "Sun Glasses") ±ýÀ¾üÌò ¾Á¢ú ¸¡½¡Áø ¬í¸¢Ä ÕðÊø
ÐÆŢ즸¡ñÊÕó¾ ¾Á¢Æ¡! ¦¾¡ ¾Á¢ú Å¢ÇìÌ:
¾ñ½¡Ê = ¾ñ + ¬Ê = ÌÇ¢÷ó¾ ¸ñ½¡Ê!
¾ñ ±ýÀ¨¾ ¿¡õ ¿¡§¼¡Úõ Àò¾¡Â¢Ãõ ¾¼¨Å ¬û¸¢§È¡õ...
¾ñ½£÷ ±ýÛõ ¦¾¡¼Ã¢ø.
±É§Å ¾Á¢ÆÕìÌ Ð Ò¾¢Â¾ý§È!
- From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Fri Nov 5 18:39:41
ºó¾¢Ã¡,
ó¾ ÌÇ¢÷îº¢Â¡É ¦º¡ø¨Äò ¾Õõ§À¡Ð ²ý ùÅÇ× ÝÎ? :-))
¦À¡Õñ¨Á ±ýÈ ¦º¡øÄ¢ý À¢ÈôÒ, ¦À¡Õû ¡Ð? Ä츽 ÌÈ¢ôÒ ±ýÉ? ¿ýÈ¢¸û. (²§¾¡ ´Õ "«È¢×ƒ£Å¢"¢ý À¨¼ôÒ §À¡Äò ¦¾Ã¢¸¢ÈÐ ó¾ ¦º¡ø!)
- From: Chandra (@ user-38lca1u.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Fri Nov 5 23:58:44
aruL,
:-))
otl poruNmai poruNmai 1. meaning, purport or subject-matter of a work
¦À¡Õñ¨Á ±ýÛÁ¢î¦º¡øÖìÌ ô§À¡Ð §ÁÖõ ÀÄ ¦À¡Õû¸û
¬ðÀðÎûÇÉ...
ÌÈ¢ôÀ¡¸ ÂüÀ¢Âü ÒÄò¾¢ø....
mass ±ýÛõ ¸¨Ä¡øÖìÌô ¦À¡Õñ¨Á ¦ÂýÚ ¾Á¢úôÀ¡¼ô¦À¡ò¾¸í¸û
¬Ùõ.
- From: Chandra (@ user-38lca1u.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Sat Nov 6 00:00:44
Óýɧà ò¾¢Ã¢Â¢Ä¢¼ô ¦À¡îº¡óÐ §À¡É Å¢¨¼:
²ý ݼ¡???
«ó¾ò ¾ðÀò¾¡ø ¯¨ÈÔõ§À¡Ð ¯û٨ȦÅôÀõ ¦ÅÇ¢ÅÕž¡ø... :-))
(latent heat of fusion; 80cal/gm ???:-)))...
- From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Sat Nov 6 14:10:03
chandhrA :-)) 80cal/gm? felt like 800cal/gm :-))))
anyways, i also found the OTL meaning but that wasn't satisfying. the word feels like a halfbaked coinage. everytime i see such a word i feel like throwing up! i wish someone would explain the etymology. i also feel that such fake words bring down thamizh faster than chennaith thamizh.
- From: Chandra (@ user-38lccat.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Sun Nov 7 10:56:28
aruL,
:-))
I wonder why that word is so troublesome to you.
Actually the etymology of taht word contains a very powerful mechanism that is very neglected by modern Tamils. We need to employ that to *save* Tamil from chennaith thamiz and paNNithth thamiz.
You can add -mai vikuthi to any noun to get the sense of "state of", or "quality of", "the philosohy of (replacing "-ness", "-ism" "-ysis" or "thuvam")" etc.
It is also the equivalent of "-thanam" ("madaththanam").
The vikuthi "=pam" also serves beautifully in that context too.
"thatpam = the state of being cold"
veppam = ....of warm
n-utpam = the state of being fine; fineness
I can immediately produce very short and sweet words in lieu of which we paNNiththamizs habitually have been employing long dumb-sounding phrases. I amtalking about situations where we ceased using already available -mai ending words or failing to coin new words ending in -mai.
I discusses this in agathiyar a few months and showd some examples in suitable contexts. [I will mine the agathiyar archives for it]
So:
poruNmai = poruL udaimai = contents
aNimai = the state of being closer
I actually used in this day-to-day speech during the my visit to the Fetna 99; When referring to the proximity of the convention center and the hotel
"ó¾ì ¸ð¼¼í¸Ç¢ý «½¢¨Á ź¾¢Â¡¸ Õ츢ÈÐ"
øÄ¡Å¢Êø
"ó¾ì ¸ð¼¼í¸û ´ýÚ즸¡ýÚ Àì¸ò¾¢ø ÕôÀРź¾¢Â¡¸ Õ츢ÈÐ"
±ýÚ ¦º¡øÄ §ÅñÎõ.
muthumai = the state of being old
-ami
- From: Pas (@ pas.dialup.cs.toronto.edu)
on: Sun Nov 7 14:47:56
Chandra,
Does not 'aNmai=nearness' (already existing word) do the job?
- From: Chandra (@ user-37ka2rs.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Sun Nov 7 15:19:23
ÀÍÀ¾¢,
¿£í¸Ç¡ ¦º¡øÅÐ ¯ñ¨Á¾¡ý.
aNimai
otl aNimai aNimai nearness, proximity, either of time or place
aNimai
otl aNimai aNimai minuteness (TLS)
otl aNmai aNmai nearness
«½¢¨Á = recency ±ýÈ ¦À¡ÕÇ¢Öõ ¬ÇôÀÎõ.
ÒÉ¢üȽ¢¨Á = recency of delivery
¬¾Ä¡ø í§¸ ¿¡õ ´§Ã §Å¨Ã즸¡ñÎ ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸¨Çô À¨¼ì¸ ÓÂø¸¢§È¡õ.
Ð : ¿ý¨Á, ¿ýÚ, ¿ýÈ¢ ±ýÀЧÀ¡ø. ¾Á¢Æ¢ø Ţ̾¢¸û ùÅ¡Ú «Æ¸¢Â ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸¨Çô À¨¼ì¸
׾׸¢ýÈÉ; «ùŢ̾¢¸û ¬ðº¢Â¢ø ¦ÅÇ¢ôÀ¨¼Â¡¸ ²Ðõ §ÅÚÀ¡Êø¨Ä. ¬Éø «¨Å ¦Åù§Åê ¦À¡ÕÙûÇ
¦º¡ü¸¨Çô À¨¼ì¸¢ýÈÉ.
«¸ò¾¢ÂìÌØÅ¢ø º¢ýÉ¡ð¸ÙìÌ Óý ¦¿Î ±ýÛõ §ÅâɢýÚõ ¬ì¸¢Â ¿£ñ¼ Àðʦġý¨È
ðÊÕó§¾ý:
¦¿Îôôõ
¦¿Î¨Á
¦¿Êø
¦¿Êò¾ø
¦¿Îì̾ø
¦¿Î¨Á
¦¿Î̾ø
¦¿ÎìÌ
¦¿Îò¾ø
¦¿Î¿÷
±ýÚ.
«Ð§À¡ø,
±-Î. -Àõ ±ýÛõ Ţ̾¢ ¦¸¡ñÎ ¿¡õ ÐŨà ¸ñÊá¾ (?) «ÏôÀõ ±ýÀЧÀ¡ø ÀÄ Ò¾¢Â ¦º¡ü¸¨Çô À¨¼òÐ
¬í¸¢Äõ ±ùÅ¡Ú ¸¢§Ãì¸ Äò¾£É §Å÷¸ñÁðÎÁýÈ¢ «ÅüÈ¢ý ¨¼î¦º¡ü¸ÇÔõ (Ţ̾¢, ¦º¡ø¦Ä¡ðÎî ¦º¡ü¸û, º¡Ã¢¨Â,
Óý¦É¡ðÎ, À¢ý¦É¡ðθû) ÀÂýÀÎò¾¢ ±ðÊÔûÇ ¸¨Ä¦º¡ø ÅÇò¨¾ «Ï¸Ä¡õ.
«ÏôÀõ ±ýÛõ ¦º¡ø ¸¡ò¾¢Õ츢ýÈÐ.
Ð ¾ðÀõ, ¦ÅôÀõ, ¦¿ÎôÀõ ±ýÀЧÀ¡ø ÀÂýÀÎõ.
ý¦É¡Õ ¿øÄ ÝÆø:
´Ç¢Â¢ÂÄ¢ø ¬í¸¢Äò¾¢ø
brightness, luumination, ligt, intensity, lux ±ýÚ ÀÄ ¸¨Ä¡ü¸û ÅÆíÌõ. ¦Åêõ Ä츢 ¬í¸¢Ä §¿¡ì¸ò§¾¡Î
À¡÷ò¾¡ø, ´ýÚõ §ÅÚÀ¡Êø¨Ä: «¨Å ¬í¸¢Ä «øÄÐ Äò¾£É ¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢É¢ýÚõ "Å¢Çì¸õ" ±ýÛõ ´§Ã ¦À¡ÕûÀÎõ
ÀÄ §Å÷¡ü¸Ç¢ýÚõ ¬ì¸ôÀðÎûÇÉ. ¬É¡ø ¸¨Ä¡ø ¿¡´ì¸¢ø «¨Å «Ú¾¢Â¢ð¼ §ÅÚÀ¡Î¨¼ÂÉ.
- From: Pas (@ pas.dialup.cs.toronto.edu)
on: Sun Nov 7 23:04:36
Chandra,
The sad thing is: while lots of people like you worry about these things and make intelligent choices after discussion in open forums etc, some people(bright and committed, no doubt) in Tamilnadu go ahead and invent new words and some of them aeem very inappropriate or designed to drive people away! How can forums like these give their input to these groups in Tamilnadu so that they will be of some use . Otherwise it all looks like" vizalukku iRaiththa nIr"... If all the non-resident Tamils make a representation to Tamilnadu govt that some members like you should be included in such bodies and your job will be to discuss these in the appropriate open forums ...and give useful feedback... won't it serve a more useful role... I somehow feel sad that so many hours of thought and useful suggestions on the part of so many outside India are not being channelized properly...
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