Topic suggested by Chandrasekaran on Sat Oct 31 10:33:31 .
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Idhu romba naala en mandayai arikkum vishayam. |
Responses:
- From: balaji (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu)
on: Sat Oct 31 12:06:24
i also vaguely remember a kural and a nAladiyAr, having the same meaning and same simile:
friendship with a good person/scholar is like a vaLarpirai, friendship with a bad person is like a theipirai. i don't remember the exact pAs, i am sure the thamizh pundits here will know.
- From: chandra (@ transquest.com)
on: Sat Oct 31 17:40:19
First of all one should be clear about the fact that there were multiple auvaiyar's.
At least two. One of them lived during the sangam era as a contemporary of AhiyamAn nedumAn anchi. Another one that lived later than Valluvar and even later than or at the same time as Appar, Sambandhar and Sundharar and Manickavasagar.
The one that said the above quoted one is thought to be the same as the one that composed Mudhurai and nalvazhi. In the last veNpA of nalvazhi she says:
thEvar kuRaLum thirunAnmaRai mudivum
mUvar thamizhum munimozhiyum - kOvai
thiruvA sagamum thirumUlar sollum
oruvA sagamen ruNar.
thEvar kuRaLum - kural;
thirunAnmaRai mudivum -vedas and their upanishads
mUvar - Appar, sundhara and sambandhar
mUvar thamizh = thevaram;
munivar = manickavasagar;
)
thiruvAsagamum;
(another interpretation: munivar = vyasa muni;
and his vedhantha suthram;)
thirumUlar sollum - thirumandhiram
Hope it solves more questions than it raises.
chandra
- From: balaji (@ compq1.crhc.uiuc.edu)
on: Mon Nov 2 03:35:53
chandra, then which is the "proverbial" avvaiyAr?? whom did 20th century avvaiyAr(k.p.s) enact??!! isn't it the one who is under the reign of adhiyamAn???
still, this doesn't seem to solve the question.how can a poet take the same idea and usage as vaLLuvar??? also, do you know the verses i had mentioned before?? even they are similar(kural and nAladiyAr).
- From: Chandrasekaran (@ global25.citicorp.com)
on: Mon Nov 2 10:42:56
Let us not restrict our discussion to Ovaiyar / Thiruvalluvar. For example, take a look at Maanickavaasagar's Thiruvembaavai and Aandal's Thiruppali Ezhuchi. Though they are not copy of each other, they are similar in the sense that one sings for Lord Siva and the other for Lord Vishnu. Was it MV who got inspired by Aandal's work ?
- From: chandra (@ transquest.com)
on: Mon Nov 2 12:35:41
Balaji,
As for the movie, "auvaiyar" with KBS, it is inaccurate in clubbing the auvaiyar's together.
It seems to be mostly the later auvaiyar. Since the emphasis in the movie is on the "nalvazhi-type" auvaiyar rather than the type of auvaiyar that was ahiyaman's friend who sang
"siRiya kaL peRinE emakkIyumannE"...implying that she drunk kaL (alcohol) proffered by pAri or adhiyaman (I don't remember which of the two).
It is not copying in the sense of plagiarizing...
it shows that VaLLuvar's expression of the fact he was conveying was unbeatable and it was an everlasting truth. Such reuse is very common in sangam literature.
- From: chandra (@ transquest.com)
on: Mon Nov 2 12:45:24
Chandrasekaran,
As you yourself have indirectly indicated, we cannot sustain the use of teh word "copying" that long. Chronologically, Andal is said to have preceded Vasagar according to commonly accepted dating.
Since she was the daughter of PeriyAzhvAr and his date is supposed to be around 600-700AD and
also from astronomical dating which take cue from her pA that says
"puLLin vAi kINDAnai...
veLLi ezhundhu viyAzham uRangiRRu"
meaning Venus is rising and Jupiter is setting.
Some Iyer had computed that this would have be
around 631 CE [Christian Era or A.D. Many writers do not recommend AD since it means "Our Lord's year" forcing Christ as the lord of non-christian's; CE is considered neutral.]
Vasagr is said to be around 800 AD.
Well irrespective of their relative chronology,
the whole "bhakti" movement had started much earlier with Kannappar, Karaikkal ammai, thevaram muvar, earlier azhvars. So in my humble opinion, I do not feel that one had inspired another in general. You may wish to discuss specific works of their such as Thiruppavai vs. Thiruvembavai vs. Thiuppalliyezhuchchi.
chandra
- From: Chandrasekaran (@ global25.citicorp.com)
on: Mon Nov 2 15:05:25
chandra, thanks for the info.
As far as COPY is concerned, what I meant, when I opened this topic was Thazhuval or Inspiration. Most of the Avvayars' Aathichoodi can be found in Thiruvalluvars KuraL or vice versa. For ex,
Nayampada Urai was by Avvai whereas the same thing has been depicted in KuraL as,
Theeyinaal sutta punn ullaarum - aaradhae
naavinaal sutta vadu.
As both of them were scholars, one would have read the others' work and got the 'so called' inspiration. My knowledge of Tamil Literature is very limited. My question is, Valluvar and Avvai apart, who else have such similarities?
- From: chandra (@ transquest.com)
on: Tue Nov 3 14:08:18
Trying to compare "Nayam padavurai" and
"Theeyinal .." is too broad. The earlier citations
were not too broad since you had actual words and phrases to go by. But here such similarity is not there.
Actually these are not even related since one of them says "speak sweetly" and the other says "Even though burns by hot objects on the skin heal in the mind, effects of hurtful words do not heal so easily". As I said earlier not only that they share no words or expressions but they are not related even that in a reasonably broad manner.
There are similarities between innumerable poet's works on even narrower bases tha you have set put to use for comparison. Many use similes etc.
ThirukkuRaL says
"niRaimozhi mAndhar perumai nilaththu
maRaimozhi mAtti vidum".
Tolakkappiya before him had said:
"niRaimozhi mAndhar ANaiyiR kiLandha
maRaimozhi thamE mandhiram enba".
It is clear that every now and then they were given the license to reuse or borrow form earlier works. They had enough works of originality to prove their stuff. Also what we are comparing are
works related to morality and ethics. They must have the freedom to restate certain ever lasting and classic moral concepts without fear of being ciriticised for plagiarism.
chandra.
- From: Chandrasekaran (@ global25.citicorp.com)
on: Thu Nov 5 11:16:53
Shall we post/read Tamil in TAMIZH in this forum. You need a murasu anjal font for this which can be downloaded from www.murasu.com. What TFM Group, Do you see any problem ? Here is my try:
ݴ ґ? TFM ̑̑, , ? - , .
- From: chandra (@ transquest.com)
on: Thu Nov 5 12:08:56
Hi,
I made typo in quoting the kuRaL above:
the sIr "mAtti" should be "kAtti".
"niRaimozhi mAndhar perumai nilaththu
maRaimozhi kAtti vidum".
I agree that we should try to get these in
Tamil fonts. Anjal is better than mylai since
anjal can be read even in Roman script
when the font is not loaded.
chandra
- From: balaji (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu)
on: Thu Nov 5 12:23:44
is there an anjal editor for unix??
- From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Tue Nov 10 16:33:32
I know this doesn't belong in here, but it's not a great sin to place it here.
In mUdhurai there is a veNbA
aduththu muyanRalu mAgunA LanRi
euththa arumanga LAgA - thoduththa
uruvaththAl nINda uyarnaranga LellAm
paruvaththA lanRip pazhA
meanin "udhvEgaththOdu muyanRAlum eduththa kAriyangaLellAm kAlam
varumbOdhuthAn Agum, for ex. nedidhu uyarndha marangaLellAm thakka
paruvam vandhAlanRi pazham kodukkAdhu".
There is a ver ver similar dhOhA (couplet) by kabir which goes like
DHIrE DHIrE rE manA DHIrE sabhkuch hOi
mAli sInchai sougaDA ruthu AyEPala hOi
(hey man, take it slow; the gardener might water the plants now (emptying
hundred pots) but they give fruits only when the season arrives!)
Of course there are parallels of the following veNbA in hindhi and
sanskrit; there should in every language, I would assume :-)
mannanu mAsaRak kaRROnum sIrthUkkin
mannaniR kaRROnE siRappudaiyan - mannaRuth
thandhEsa mallAR chirappillai kaRRORkuch
chenRa idamellAm siRappu.
I remember reading in sanskrit an old couplet that goes like
avichArya na karthavyam karthavyam suvichAritham
which, in thamizh also, has a very crisp form as
eNNith thuNigak karumam thuNindhapin
eNNuva menba dhizhukku.
!!
- From: chandra (@ user-38lc8pl.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Wed Nov 11 20:11:09
AruLarasan,
These were good citations from different languages.
To answer some of the original questions about similarities between the works of various poets in Tamil, I recalled the great paraphrasing that aruNagiri nAthar had done of nakkIrar's ThirumurugARRuppadai; it is too extensive to cite right away.
- From: Venkataraman. (@ giasmd01.vsnl.net.in)
on: Sat Jan 2 09:15:54
Kannadasan's copying (if I may call so) of old poems is a great service that he has done to the language.
e.g. pattinathtaar's aththamum vaazvum agaththumatte... was given to us in a very simple and powerful form as:-
vIdu varai uRavu, vIdhi varai manaivi...
Re-telling excellent ideas and truths in the same or different form is Ok as long as it is not a mere copying of the words alone in desperation.
- From: Venkataraman. (@ giasmd01.vsnl.net.in)
on: Sat Jan 2 09:24:28
Example of copying words in desperation perhaps. In a recent tamil film song - naRumugaiyE, naRumugaiyE...
there is a line - yaayum gnyaayum yaaraagiyarO, nenju nErndhadhenna?
These lines have been lifted from two koRunthogaip paadalgaL in the 12th standard tamiz book - seyyuL pagudhi,
1982, Tamilnadu State Board.
I think - writing songs for movies has become an easy job now-a-days.
- From: chandra (@ user-38lcacd.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Sun Jan 3 00:48:27
Well,
I think we have to see the positive side of it.
It is infinitely better than "composing" cacocophonies such as
"AththA AththoramA vARiyA"...
or
"eppadi eppadi samanjchathu eppadi".
The lines from Chempulappeyal nIrar's "yaayum jnaayum yaaragiyarO" are super classic and shall be considered mathirams for all humanity and Vairamuthu shall be commented for "copying"` them instead of using some lame excuses such as "oh people want me to do this way ot that way" to generate junk.
Why I am saying this is, people like Vaali even when writing poems for non-movie settings and for critical audiences has produced such junk; recently he has written something along the lines of "pAnchAli sabatham" (do not recall the exact title"); it is so cheap and tasteless. I feel that we are better off ceasing and desisiting from "producing" any "original" poetic work for sometime and copy classics for a while to take stock of our situation; attempting to be original in
an unrestricted fashion is more destructive to the civlization than simple copying of calssics.
thanks
chandra
- From: Venkataraman. (@ giasmd01.vsnl.net.in)
on: Tue Jan 5 11:36:38
I appreciate your positive look at the matter. While we are at this, an interesting sample from a hindi song:
The movie, I think is, hum kisIsE kum nahin.
The lyric goes as: bhUlEga dil jis din thumhE, woh din zindagI kaa aakhri din hOgaa!
Highly unlikely that the lyricist had read puRanaanURu. The song goes like this:
endhai vaazi aadhanungka!.....
ninniyaan maRappin, maRakkunkaalai, ennuyir yaakkayir piriyum pozudhum
enniyaan maRappin maRakkuven! Sometimes, it may not be a conscious thazuval, the similarity may be just coincidental, I guess.
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