Topic suggested by K.Balasubramanian on Wed Apr 28 06:36:49 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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It is obvious that tamil lacks a large number of sounds present in other languages. While every language suffers from this problem to some extent there is no one to advocate increasing the number of letters in tamil. Tamil people pronounce many foreign words wrongly because of this defect as their knowledge is through WRITTEN tamil. Tamil purists will not agree to the introduction of new letters and they may be quite justified. I feel there is a need for Scientific Tamil meant ONLY for writing scientific works in tamil. This can coexist with the accepted tamil. Even in magazines written in accepted tamil new scientific words can be given in brackets so that proper pronunciation can be propagated. But I don't think new SYMBOLS are needed. With the existing letters some new method must be devised to impart proper pronunciation. This is quite challenging. But remember some half-hearted attempts were made by using "Aida" ezhuththu. I suggest some sort of solution like TeX used for typesetting mathematics. Who will take the challenge of developing Scientific Tamil?
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Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Chandra (@ viking2.delta-air.com)
on: Wed Jun 30 10:32:44
Vanchi,
Hooray! You have conveyed exacty what I wanted to! I don't have write here!
You said rightly that it is *us* who via direct day-to-day interaction and through that corrupt the Tamil of the common man like the auto-drivers.
I was struck by the same thoughts sometime ago whence *I* started changing. I realize how much inferiority complex was ruling me and came to terms with it. If I employ paNNith thamiz, it is completely because I do not know or cannot recall quickly enough the compact Tamil equivalent, not because of some inexplicable subconscious complex that goads me to use English words. It is such a nirvAna! I feel so light.
One thing I have found is that initially it is difficult to naturally avoid paNNiththamiz when excited or in emotional situations...like in an emotional conversation with relatives or friends or in conversations with strangers. But you have to be conscious of it and becomes all right.
As with any cultural matters you have to be patient...it takes at least 6 months to reach a comfortable stage.
But I have started having impact.
- From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Wed Jun 30 13:30:11
try telling autorickshAw drivers sOththuk kai and pIchchAng kai :-) they WILL understand. as vanchi said, it is us. i distinctly remember this incident. i was travelling from thaNdaiyAr pEttai to some place and asked the conductor a ticket to ezumbUr. he said "what?" i repeated ezumbUr. he didn't get it. i had to repeat a couple more times and finally someone standing by my side said, "Oh ezumbUrA. avarukku egmOrukku oru ticket koduppA"!! someone finally got it. (i was lucky for not having beaten up by the conductor because the bus was crowded!) if WE keep our mettle, everything will fall in place. senthamizhum nAppazakkam. it is very true. i used to talk (in daytoday converstations) in tamizh without adultering it with english or samskrit. now after living in the US for 5 years and not much opportunity to talk in thamizh, i find it easier to converse in english than in thamizh!!!. shame on me, but that's the truth. as chandhrA pointed out, once we get the hang of talking "purely" in thamizh, it would as natural as saying "trivandraththukku nAlu ticket reserve paNNanum".
- From: ananth (@ 130.219.176.136)
on: Wed Jun 30 19:25:08
vanchi:
I just saw this thread for the first time (one more to enjoy!)and noticed that you wrote: "Chandra: Did you notice our learned friend ANnathanarayanan interchanging vallina and idaiyina rakaram in the spelling of the word,
uRinju/urinju thAL (blotting paper) in vvv."
I had used mellina r in my kuRippu part, only by mistake. (The pA itself had the correct R). I thought I immediately realized the mistake and posted a note telling that the uRinju thAL had become less absorbing and changed into urinju thAL in the footnote(or something like that). When I get more time I'll add my thoughts to this interesting thread.
- From: vanchi (@ isdn5.pppmad.vsnl.net.in)
on: Thu Jul 1 01:33:43
Ananth:
I apologize for exploiting your inadvertent error that might have resulted from fingering.
I saw your footnote that might have been inserted later, only after "quoting" you here.
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- From: sankara dass nagoji (@ pxy-hst-12.tandem.com)
on: Wed Nov 10 19:07:39
i see in college guys, especially in cities, talking in a new fashion. excuse me, but girls do it more. "vechufy", "eduthufy" etc. one said "he arpaNichufied". last 3,4 years, I hear this more. this is another edhiri to thamiz. once the parents talk like this, the next gen will also go like that.
also my friends make fun out of me, when i write letters in thamiz to all other friends who know thamiz. recently when I asked many of my friends in the USA, no one has written anything in thamiz in the last 2 or 3 years.
writing needs more training; when one writes one needs to know the exact spelling. writing is almost gone for many people (say 75% of the people). pEchu also is getting corrupted day by day. something has to be done.
when people are getting rid of reading/talking/writing in thamiz, to me it sounds like that there is some other fundamental problem, than lack of symbols to represent foreign sounds. it may be english craze etc etc. we need to find that out and kill it. otherwise these problems will come again and again in different ways.
- From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Thu Nov 11 12:07:15
sdj,
if you want to talk about the external reasons like english craze etc., one of the main reasons i have seen people going away from thamizh in thamizh nAdu is tn politicians. this indirectly leads to the amarikkak kanavu. i personally know how bad this is. (you probably can't even imagine to what depths the youths!!! - it's horrendous to call them so! - of india are ready to go in order to come to the united states.)
as discussed previously, there is no good model for a common person to follow. we don't talk in thamizh in public. there is no good contemporary literature in thamizh. (this needs a separate thread.) the valai seems to me doing a good job in this regard but what percent of thamizh speaking population has access to the net?
the ways we can reverse the trend;
(1) should induce pride in thamizh. this can be achieved by the following.
(2) producing very high quality literature.
(3) nAtakAk kalaiyai vaLarkkaNum.
(4) ezuththALarkaL, thamizhk kalaignarkaL vaRumaiyil vAdAmal pArththuk koLLa vENdum.
(5) thamizh ilakkiyam kuRaindha paksham indhiya aLavil pEsappadum padi arisiyal seyya vENdum. ;-)
more later.
- From: sankara dass nagoji (@ pxy-hst-12.tandem.com)
on: Thu Nov 11 14:54:42
1) as a pathetic scene, in some higher secondary schools, the hours for Thamiz will be taken by science teachers; and many thamiz teachers themselves say "engg aggregate niRaiya irukkanum; adhu dhaan mukkiyam!"!! what to say! also, the moral instructions classes are swallowed. until my sslc, in village side, I had moral instruction classes, when teachers actually teach morals, thru stories, history etc etc. even in higher secondary schools, there is an hour alloted, but given to science teachers always!
2) US craze is like anything nowadays. people think that it is the only way out. my friends have a company in bangalore. when they give an ad in the paper, people send application along with a xerox copy of their passport!
3) cinema, has taken over nAdakam, to a large extent. TV also, is taking over; but the standard of TV programs had not become so bad. reading habit has decreased to a large extent (i mean thamiz books).
4) even though thamiz has a very robust grammar, even till now, it has not been recognized as semmozi, just for the reason it lacks certain sounds, from other languages. that is a hurdle, when delhi academy analyses certain thamiz works.
- From: maNivaNNan (@ pc-242-61.corp.3com.com)
on: Thu Nov 11 15:51:34
Thiru Nagoji,
You have been harping on "lack of certain sounds" as the reason for Tamil not being recognized as a Chemmozhi. What are the requirements of a Chemmozhi? Does Sanskrit have all the sounds that you can render in Tamil? How about Persian and Urdu? This lack of sound business is a canard. Tamil is a classical language with a rich tradition of literature that is on par with any thing any other classical language has produced.
- From: sankara dass nagoji (@ pxy-hst-12.tandem.com)
on: Thu Nov 11 16:27:37
aiyA! I am not telling my opinion. This has been the issue for so long, since independence. every language lacks some sound including skt. But the deciding people sitting in Delhi have not listened to our words. as far as literature is concerned, probably thamiz is the top or second top in India. even I want to see thamiz in the semmozip-pattiyal. do not think that I am against it. what their scale is not known to me also.
because of this hurdle (one may attribute this to the politicians - only kalaignar is a thamiz scholar who can defend for this issue), so many thamiz works have not got due recognition. bhArathi's songs are no less than that of Tagore. we lost a Nobel prize too, just becos of these silly things!
please do not put a stamp that I do not love thamiz; i love it to the same extent that i love skt. pl understand that.
- From: Sujata (@ h216-183-0-67.mt.fiberone.net)
on: Sat Nov 20 10:28:30
Here's my 2 cents:
Tamil is not considered Chemmozhi because of its present day custodians' lack of devotion to it. I doubt we lost a Nobel prize because of the lack of sounds, it is because of our ability to highlight Tamil and its literary geniuses in the world arena. When many North Americans try to learn Chinese in schools, why haven't they even heard of Tamil? Could it be because the Chinese still speak Chinese among themselves even when they come to N.A., whereas we speak Englipiece :-))
Pointing to the non-availability of sounds in Tamil is the easy way out and is being used by one and all (both Tamil speakers and others). No language can render all the sounds of another. Tamil has many sounds that are not there in English or Sanskrit.
Creating opportunities for Tamil scholars is also a must. It is very easy to preach from the other side. The TamilNadu Govt. started Tamil medium at college level with scholarships etc., but students coming out face an uphill battle in the job market. Is this fair? Given the present state of affairs, who among us would send their children to Tamil medium schools or colleges?
Talking about US craze, let's not ridicule it because many of us here on this forum have done it. Remember the old saying Thirai Kadal Odium Thiravium Thedu. :-) Besides, for every software engineer that comes out of India there are 10 that succeed in India.
- From: Chandra (@ user-38lcc3a.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Sat Nov 20 11:08:54
It is sickening to hear this "Tamil-lack-certain-sounds" rerain. Those who utter it are either compeltely ignorant or conspirators.
Looks like a new strategem is shaping up to destory whatever little is left of Tamil heritage.
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