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A place for sharing explanations, interpretations and even doubts on verses from the ancient times. |
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Responses:
- Old responses
- From: chandra (@ viking.delta-air.com)
on: Wed Dec 9 17:16:43
Manisekaran,
"Panchamarabu" is not lost. It was thought to have
been lost. then it was rumored for a longtime that
one TheivasigaamaNik kOunder in or around Avinaasi
in Coimbatore dist was in possession of a copy of it.
Then immesaurably fortunately for us all, it was
actually obtained from him by PoLLaachchi Mahaalingam in 1973 and published afterwards.
I learnt this when I read a book by Abhayaambikaa
titled "Isaiyiyal" that tries to draw a parallel
between Tamil music and astrology; it uses the old
Tamil names in all its discourse and quotes a few
veNpAs from Panchamarabu.
When I read the section that said the book is alive...i had this indescribable joyous sensation right at the very top of my head, the 7th spot in the hierarchy of spots identified in yoga.
I will try to get a copy of it...even if I do not
understand it. We have to make sure thing are not lost again.
chandra
- From: chandra (@ viking.delta-air.com)
on: Wed Dec 9 17:18:25
Sorry for the apparent duplication...
I was trying to correct the typo..
at teh very end to "*not* lost again"...
chandra
- From: Manisekaran (@ 202.188.1.82)
on: Thu Dec 10 06:04:27
Dear Chandra
Appreciate your comments and contribution.
There are several books that do contradict on facts. My views could have been inadvertantly prejudiced by these books. It is again an irony to learn that the so called "lost" books are back in publication either in full or in parts.
1. Agathiyam is lost, but some some of its soothirangaL are still available.
2.Koothunool's history is not much known, but it is said to be in publication again.
3.Sayantham is said to be lost, but some of its soothirangaL are still available.
4.Seyitriyam is said to be lost but some of its soothirangaL are available today.
5.True- there is a new publication of the Panchamarabu
It is most unfortunate that we have to enter into discussion using Romanised Tamil. Otherwise our expressions would be most clear and precise.
Yes, Chilappathikaram is immensely emotional. Otherwise the Bharathi pulavan would not have said "Nenjai aLLum chilappathikaaram". I think there is a song in Kaanalvari which reads "thingal maalai venkudaiyaam....." which depicts ancient Tamil music.
Other than chilappathikaaram, there are also other literary works where ancient Tamil music is mentioned. "Perungkaathai" which talks about udhayanan is one such book. Here udhayanan is depicted and described in the form of music.
Seevaga chintamani of thiruthakka thevar is another masterpiece that talks about music.
Parippaadal, Pingala nigaNdu, kallAdam, perungkAthai, Devaram, Periyappuranam also make mention of ancient music of the Tamils.
Kambaramayanam is one work that talks about the greatness of veena music through the characterisation of "then ilangai venthan"-Iravanan.
FURTHER CONTRUBUTION TO MUSIC
1. In the 4th century BC Bharatha Munivar wrote Nattiya Saasthiram that talks about isai, naadagam and naatiyam.
2. In the 5th century BC Mathanga munivar has written "Pirugathesi" whic talks about the raagas of those days.
3.From the 7th to about 14th century there was the bakthi period in Tamilnaadu. The aazhvaars and the naayanmaars went around promoting Tamil and music. The Devaram given by Thirugnanasambanthar, Sunderar and Naavukkarasar talk about the ancient Tamil paNs like nAttappAdai, thakkarAgam, pazhanthakkarAgam, thakkEsi,kurinchi, viyaazhakkurinji, mEgarAgakurinchi, kolli, sAthAri,etc. It is widely claimed that Devaram forms the basis for the current Tamizhisai.
Manickavasagar's contribution is not to be under-estimated. His thiruvembAvai pAttu, AmmAnai pAttu, kOthumbi pAttu, theLLEnap pAttu, poovalli pAttu, oosat pAttu, kuyil pAttu etc are music based.
Among the AzhvArs, NammAzhvAr's songs contain ancient Tamil paNs. ThiruppAnAzvar has sung about Lord parantAmanAr, and these are generally called "Thevaganam"
The kings especially the Chola kings had done much for music. Raajarajacholan who built Tanjore Periya Koyil placed 41 devotional singers there to praise the Lord. His son Rajendra Cholan built the temple called Gangai konda Chozheechuram, in which he ensured the continuous singing of Devaram songs . He build a special Devara mandapam there. Kulothunga Cholan encouraged the production of Periyapuranam by chekkizhar, and he was so involved in music that he was called "yezhisai vallabi".
(Too tired now. More in store)
Thanks for the patience. But I am an ardent lover of music.
"thunbak kadalai thANdumpOthu
thONiyAvathu geetham
anbuk kuralil amutham kalanthe
arunthath tharuvathu geetham
engumn chitharum eNNangkaLayum
izhuthu varuvathu geetham
iNaithu magizhvathu geetham"
Manisekaran
- From: Manisekaran (@ 202.188.1.82)
on: Thu Dec 10 10:12:56
Sorry.
All BC should read AD
Manisekaran
- From: Kanchana (@ spider-te041.proxy.aol.com)
on: Tue Dec 15 16:02:08
Manisekaran,
Good to see you in this thread. Thank you for sharing all that valuable information, especially the music-related information on chilappadhikaaram. I'm enjoying the arangERRu kAthai very much.
Chandra,
Thank you for that additional info. Talking of lost books, a rare edition of kuRunthogai was mailed to me from India but got lost. Hoping to track it down, so we can have some discussions on kuRunthogai.
- From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com)
on: Thu Dec 24 21:25:04
nARRamizh vAsagarhalukkOr nalla vAippu!
This week kalki has the advt for all sangakAla
ilakkiyam in print. All of them in one go!
patthu pAttu, ettu thoGai and pathinenkeel kanakku. All in 20 volumes costs just Rs. 650
if u pay in one installmant. Otherwise 3 easy
payments are also there(Amounts to Rs. 750).
Don't miss this chance. If anybody needs the details send me mail with ur Fax number.
I can fax the advt page to u. I will be away for 2-3 days though.(Fri/Sat/Sun)
BTW, if it sounds like an radio advt, i am sorry.
I am excited after seeing the advt.
- From: chandra (@ user-38lclb9.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Sat Dec 26 18:14:04
mannAru,
Is it only the mUlam or urai included?
20 volumes should be able to accommodate
urai too, I would guess.
I am very very much interested.
Can you post the contact info?
Rs 600-750 rupees sounds very cheap even from Indian perspective.
- From: chandra (@ viking.delta-air.com)
on: Thu Dec 31 11:04:28
---BEGIN QUOTE----------
From: "N. Ganesan"
<<<
I dimly recall that someone had reported a Tamil inscription from New
Zealand, but I don't have the reference here, nor can I say whether the
identification is correct. And there is the hypothesis of a relationship
between Dravidian and Japanese. When I first heard this on NHK (the
Japanese shortwave radio) and mentioned it to Zvelebil, he was utterly
skeptical (he presumed it was just another kookie theory), but several
years down the road, in that book from Pondicherry, he has devoted a
short chapter to the matter. But all this is still in a hypothetical
stage.
>>>
I have to check my collection of papers: In New Zealand,
it is a big bell, inscribed in Tamil.
Well, I think of Susumu Ono's works; P. Pelliot
wrote in early 1900s an article on the realtions between
Tamil and Japanese alphabetical order. Some have
shown the similarities between Maanyoshu and Sangam poetry.
Regards,
N. Ganesan
---------------END QUOTE-------------
- From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com)
on: Thu Dec 31 18:32:15
Chandra:
allAmE mUlamum uRaiyum sErndhu. I will post the
details about the contact. If u want the stuff to be shipped to anywhere outside india, u have to
send a DD for USD 50.
- From: Ramanan/JR (@ rigel-52.cableol.net)
on: Sat Jan 2 04:56:28
I talked to my dad and he had already made arrangements to buy them. He said the publishers are 'varthamAn pathipagam'.
thanks for the information friends.
- From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com)
on: Tue Jan 5 23:28:04
I would be interested in the influence of Indian language/Tamil on Japanese. I understand their alphabetical system is similar to Devanagiri/Tamil structure. (vowels, consonants and vowel+consonant).
I also read about some Japanese researchers visiting Tamil Nadu to do some work in culture/language. Also, I hear that Buddhism reached Japan thru tamil proselytizers.
- From: Poonguzhali (@ c4350.isid.co.jp)
on: Tue Jan 26 22:35:47
Tamil - Japanese
There is a lot of similarity in the language structure and grammar between Tamil and Japanese. Let me take a partr instance.
A word to word translation between Tamil and Japanese is 100% possible!
For example:
unnudaiya peyar enna?
This is in Japanese
anata-no namai wa nan des ka
where
anata - un
no - udaiya
namai - peyar
nan des ka - enna
Whereas such translation in English to Tamil is not possible.
unnudaiya peyar enna
yours name what?
Further particles in Tamil and Japanese are also similar
Examples:
udaiya ( as in unnudaiya, ennudaiya) - no
um (as in adhuvum, naanum) - mo
Even certain words are present in both Tamil and Japanese like IRU
iru is the root word of imasu in Japanese
irukka in Tamil is imaska in Japanese.
There are lot such, but I am not very good at that. So I have given what ever I know
- From: bull (@ cache.mch.sni.de)
on: Wed Feb 3 06:29:19
makkaLE, Sorry for the digression... I can see that there is a very interesting conversation about Tamil and Japanese going on here... but...
For the below kuRaL
Dr. Vasavan kuduththa poruL puriyavillai. yaaraavadhu konjam viLakkam kudukka mudiyumaa?
adhigaaram : 83 kUdaa n-atpu
kuRaL eN : 823
kuRaL :
palan-alla kaRRak kadaiththum manamn-allar
aagudhal maaNaarkku aridhu
poruL :
n-allapala n-UlgaLaik kaRRuth thErn-dhapOdhum, adhanaal manam
thirun-dhi n-atpaadhal pagaivarkku illai.
- From: Kanchana (@ spider-te034.proxy.aol.com)
on: Wed Feb 3 11:12:07
bull, I'm just going to hazard a guess here. The meaning seems quite straightforward: even though highly learned, such learning does not minimize enemity in certain people, and, therefore, such people are not to be trusted as friends.
vaLLuvar's underlying point seems to be that education does not automatically imply emotional
maturity which can temper enemity.
Knowledgebles, please correct/add as necessary.
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