Topic started by SENTHIL on Wed Dec 1 01:43:15 .
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Responses:
- From: gdravid (@ mail.smart20.com)
on: Wed Dec 1 20:57:17
Kattabommu,
This forum is for people who are "politically very correct". They might even go to the extend of practicing "untouchabilty" if they have to face "politically incorrect" statements. Try to change those two sentences which have the meaning like
1. "possibly because of brahminical influence."
2. tamils are first one to coin such word"
then you might get a response.
same ANBUDAN,
gdravid
PS: Whoever "really interested" and capable please coin a new word for "brahminical". I find equal no of or percentage of "brahminical" people in all the castes in TN. And that word could be offensive to the people with brahmin ancestory who may not be "brahminical".
- From: Mani M. Manivannan (@ pc-242-61.corp.3com.com)
on: Thu Dec 2 01:13:25
From the online Webster's dictionary at
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
Main Entry: Brah·man
Variant(s): or Brah·min /'brä-m&n; 2 is 'brA-, 'brä-, 'bra-/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English Bragman inhabitant of India, from Latin Bracmanus, from Greek Brachman, from Sanskrit brAhmana of the Brahman caste, from brahman Brahman
Date: 15th century
1 a : a Hindu of the highest caste traditionally assigned to the priesthood b : 1BRAHMA 2
2 : any of an Indian breed of humped cattle : ZEBU; especially : a large vigorous heat-resistant and tick-resistant usually silvery gray animal developed in the southern U.S. from the zebu
3 usually Brahmin : a person of high social standing and cultivated intellect and taste
- Brah·man·ic /brä-'ma-nik/ or Brah·man·i·cal /-ni-k&l/ adjective
Why should anybody be offended?
- From: Ramji (@ 205.177.170.115) on: Thu Dec 2 06:54:42
Kadavul IS a great word!
Why was the original meaning\message lost?
I am not qualified or knowledgable enough to talk history but this is my personal view: The original messages of Christ and Budha were stopped by pedastalizing them and creating a religion out of them.
Kadavul is a threat to the security of clinging to a religion, a caste, a class or an ethnic race.
- From: Senthil Kattabommu (@ ccedu179.nets.uri.edu) on: Fri Dec 3 01:27:41
Ok. I see a point in Dravid's comment. The other alternative could be "sanskritic" or "Varnashram based" or "Northern" influences.
Another issue that could be related to this topic is "siddha tradition" and "Non-siddha sanskritic" tradition. Since some netters are already talking about this, I thought I can throw some comments.
"The siddha tradition is a type of subjective Idealism. That is god is within. This idea was adopted by the dravida sisu sankara too. On the other hand, Sanskritic tradition is more of objective idealism. That is every yhins is within Brahma.
But Tamils also had materialistic thinking, I guess in addition to subjective idealism.
SENTHIL
- From: K. N. Sankara Narayanan (@ ) on: Tue Sep 16 23:13:46
This forum is good and interesting. I would be grateful if more information is provided on the words, "Kadavul", "Iraivan", "Deivam", "Bhagavan", "Andavan" etc.
- From: R.Srinivasan. (@ ip68-0-198-105.ri.ri.cox.net) on: Mon Oct 6 20:09:23 EDT 2003
BRAHMINICAL INFLUENCES?
Such a sort of expressions against any community on the basis of birth are denigrating and wounding to anybody of broad outlook.Why my lovely Tamilian brethren should be baselessly so biased and BRAHMIN-HATRED?
The meaning of Thirukkural :"«ó¾½÷ ±ý§À¡÷ «È§Å¡÷, Áü¦Èù×¢÷ìÌõ ¦ºó¾ñ¨Á âñ¦¼¡Ø¸Ä¡ý" clarifies on how a section of the people were named as Brahimns by the Kings and on what basis they were selected to take up the so called assignments of Brahmins in those ancient days.
The word "KADAVUL", is a Secular Term, irrespective of any Religion and conveys a typical meaning unlike the words in other languages to mean ther Supreme-Protector, so called GOD....such as "BHAGWAAN", EESHWAR etc.
This Tamil word KADAVUL means ..."The Supreme-power so to say OMNIPOTENT, surpassing everything, but hidden inside every object you believe to contain..,even within one's own Body and Soul, if one has such a faith.
- From: ilakia (@ 203.106.162.215) on: Mon Oct 13 06:13:45 EDT 2003
kadavul ..means
nam ullatai kadanthu ulle erupavanthan kadavul........
- From: :) (@ d150-40-7.home.cgocable.net) on: Mon Oct 13 09:50:18 EDT 2003
R. Srinivasan,
It looks like youa re new to this forum. This place is a very prejudiced place filled with hatred. All groups hate each other. The longer you stay in forumhub discussions, especially the Tamil history/Indian history sections you risk becoming prejudiced yourself.
- From: :) (@ d150-40-7.home.cgocable.net) on: Mon Oct 13 10:59:42 EDT 2003
Srinivasan,
BTW, Ihave read somewhere that anthanar does not necessarily mean Brahmins in sanga Tamil.
- From: Idiappam (@ cache139.156ce.maxonline.com.sg) on: Tue Oct 14 02:17:31 EDT 2003
Right, the correct Tamil word for Brahmins - is 'pArpAr' - coloquically - paapaan!
- From: :) (@ d150-40-7.home.cgocable.net) on: Tue Oct 14 09:07:32 EDT 2003
idiappam,
I heard that pArpanan also did not originally refer to brahmins. pArpanan sounds like overseer or some one that sees something. I am sure you have heard the term "kuri pArththal" etc.
- From: £ (@ proxy3.leeds.ac.uk) on: Tue Oct 14 15:15:29 EDT 2003
Some people here seem to have an in built hatred to any community. Hindutvavaadis do not like moslems, christians and dravidianists (but both the dravdianists and hindutvavaadis love each other - speak about the heights of stupidity!)
christian missionaries do not like anything hindu and so do moslems.
Grow up people!
- From: £ (@ proxy3.leeds.ac.uk) on: Tue Oct 14 15:18:31 EDT 2003
There are innumberable historical references that show that brahmins were actually *invited* to the Tamil country by the kings themselves who competed with each other for undertaking vedic yAgas. The fact that Sanskrit and Tamil have influenced each other and that they are heavily twined together cannot be undone by any force on earth.
Why would even the great tamil poets sing tons of verses in praise of Sanskrit works?
one upmanship with an object of hatred is fascism.Not good for your health, you know!
- From: :) (@ d150-40-7.home.cgocable.net) on: Tue Oct 14 15:45:06 EDT 2003
"
There are innumberable historical references that show that brahmins were actually *invited* "
may be so, but it could also be true that most of today's brahmins living in Tamilnadu are native Tamil people.
- From: R.Srinivasan. (U.S.A) (@ ip68-0-198-105.ri.ri.cox.net) on: Tue Oct 14 16:35:20 EDT 2003
"ANTHANAR" Name does not mean BRAHMINS?
All the Tamil Names as ANTHANAR, VAEDHIYAR, PAARPANAR, MARAIYOAR, MARAIYAVAR, VAAY-NALLAR etc. can be seen in many Sangath-Thamizh Literature, (one or the other word differently to avoid repetition of one and the same word) to mean Brahmins, who were assigned some of the responsible positions by the Kings of Royal days.They were highly revered as "Iyers", unlike now-a-days usage as "Hey Iyyarae..." meaning an insult and denigration. ... Although innocent! ... PITIABLE STATE OF AFFAIRS!!!
- From: :) (@ d150-40-7.home.cgocable.net) on: Tue Oct 14 18:09:11 EDT 2003
"can be seen in many Sangath-Thamizh Literature, (one or the other word differently to avoid repetition of one and the same word) to mean Brahmins"
That's just guess work. There's no proof that there existed Brahmins as we know them today in Tolkappiyam times and that Tolkappiyam anthanar is today's Brahmin.
"They were highly revered as "Iyers", "
hah?
"unlike now-a-days usage as "Hey Iyyarae..." "
whose making do you think that is??
"PITIABLE STATE OF AFFAIRS!!!"
and I thought you came to this forum without prejudice and that you might be corrupted by the prejudices existent here. Silly me!
- From: £ (@ proxy1.leeds.ac.uk) on: Wed Oct 15 04:35:23 EDT 2003
:),
Not true. The tholkaapiyam explicitly refers to Brahmins as Iyers. This book has to be understood within the context of the times it was created.
http://tamil.berkeley.edu
My source is Prof George L Hart of the University of California at Berkeley and AK Ramanujan of the University of Chicago.
Blaming brahmins for the caste system is passing the buck. The majority of the crimes against SC/STs are committed by OBCs and MBCs not by the forward castes. These OBCs and MBCs find it easy to pass the blame on to brahmins who hardly exist in the rural setting of Tamil Nadu.
Similarly with christians, moslems and sikhs of India. These religions have implicit caste systems and even deny the respect and dignity to dalit christians, moslems and dalit sikhs.
It's no use blaming brahmins for casteism when you yourselves practice it.
- From: :) (@ d150-40-7.home.cgocable.net) on: Wed Oct 15 08:46:10 EDT 2003
Here's an example of Prof. George Hart's mistaken ideas
http://www.tamil.net/list/2001-08/msg00359.html
In any case I am not interested in getting into this boring, never ending caste debate.
George Hart or not, the word Iyer does not occur in tolkappiyam.
You might be interested in reading this which clearly establishes through science that brahmins have more in common with other castes within any given region than with their brahmin counterparts elsewhere in the country http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/cesmg/peopling.html
One cannot have it both ways. Either brahmins came and settled here and there everywhere in India influencing local societies, which makes them "foreigners", or they are just a local group that climbed the social ladder by performing some rituals/magic, etc borrowed from everyehwere and everyone. I prefer to believe that the latter was true. You are entitled to your own opinion of course.
- From: Ramji (@ 205.177.170.115) on: Thu Dec 2 06:54:42
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