Topic started by k . Sumanth (@ 210-210-34-150.lan.sify.net) on Wed Sep 18 12:43:56 .
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Who so ever,
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- From: Telugu (@ 61.11.82.97)
on: Fri Apr 16 06:58:18 EDT 2004
Mr.Idiyappam,
i thank you for your attitude, you were courteous enough to answer my questions but the only disliking factor i found in you is that you guys keep nagging about sanskrit, the language i respect the most.whether you Tamils like it or not it is the most liked language among all languages by all speakers of all other languages.i don't think Telugu being a match for sanskrit.sanskrit is the greatest language
- From: BAABAA (@ d154-5-156-191.bchsia.telus.net)
on: Wed Apr 21 20:17:15 EDT 2004
EVERY ONE GO TO THIS SITE U WILL NOE WICH LANGUAGE IS OLDER:
http://www.ancientscripts.com/sa_ws.html
NANRI VANNAKAM
ITS TAMIL HAHAHA
- From: ki,i (@ d154-5-156-191.bchsia.telus.net)
on: Wed Apr 21 20:19:07 EDT 2004
yea wut muthaf*ckas tamil is way older look at da link mr. baabaa put up...
peace out muthaf*ckas
- From: Idiappam (@ cm231.sigma1.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Wed Apr 21 21:38:49 EDT 2004
Baaba said:
//EVERY ONE GO TO THIS SITE U WILL NOE WICH LANGUAGE IS OLDER:
http://www.ancientscripts.com/sa_ws.html
NANRI VANNAKAM
//
That site is about the evolution of scripts not Langauges! Don't confuse these two. A Langauge can be older than its current script. Ever heard of the 'vattezhuthu' script of the Tamil Language. OR have you seen the Grantha Tamil Script.
Anyway, Tamil is certainly older than Sanskrit!
- From: mugil (@ leased-200-20-226.bng.vsnl.net.in)
on: Thu Apr 22 05:41:38 EDT 2004
Statement on the Status of Tamil as a Classical Language
Professor Maraimalai has asked me to write regarding the position of Tamil as a classical language, and I am delighted to respond to his request.
I have been a Professor of Tamil at the University of California, Berkeley, since 1975 and am currently holder of the Tamil Chair at that institution. My degree, which I received in 1970, is in Sanskrit, from Harvard, and my first employment was as a Sanskrit professor at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, in 1969. Besides Tamil and Sanskrit, I know the classical languages of Latin and Greek and have read extensively in their literatures in the original. I am also well-acquainted with comparative linguistics and the literatures of modern Europe (I know Russian, German, and French and have read extensively in those languages) as well as the literatures of modern India, which, with the exception of Tamil and some Malayalam, I have read in translation. I have spent much time discussing Telugu literature and its tradition with V. Narayanarao, one of the greatest living Telugu scholars, and so I know that tradition especially well. As a long-standing member of a South Asian Studies department, I have also been exposed to the richness of both Hindi literature, and I have read in detail about Mahadevi Varma, Tulsi, and Kabir.
I have spent many years -- most of my life (since 1963) -- studying Sanskrit. I have read in the original all of Kalidasa, Magha, and parts of Bharavi and Sri Harsa. I have also read in the original the fifth book of the Rig Veda as well as many other sections, many of the Upanisads, most of the Mahabharata, the Kathasaritsagara, Adi Sankara’s works, and many other works in Sanskrit.
I say this not because I wish to show my erudition, but rather to establish my fitness for judging whether a literature is classical. Let me state unequivocally that, by any criteria one may choose, Tamil is one of the great classical literatures and traditions of the world.
The reasons for this are many; let me consider them one by one.
First, Tamil is of considerable antiquity. It predates the literatures of other modern Indian languages by more than a thousand years. Its oldest work, the Tolkappiyam,, contains parts that, judging from the earliest Tamil inscriptions, date back to about 200 BCE. The greatest works of ancient Tamil, the Sangam anthologies and the Pattuppattu, date to the first two centuries of the current era. They are the first great secular body of poetry written in India, predating Kalidasa's works by two hundred years.
Second, Tamil constitutes the only literary tradition indigenous to India that is not derived from Sanskrit. Indeed, its literature arose before the influence of Sanskrit in the South became strong and so is qualitatively different from anything we have in Sanskrit or other Indian languages. It has its own poetic theory, its own grammatical tradition, its own esthetics, and, above all, a large body of literature that is quite unique. It shows a sort of Indian sensibility that is quite different from anything in Sanskrit or other Indian languages, and it contains its own extremely rich and vast intellectual tradition.
Third, the quality of classical Tamil literature is such that it is fit to stand beside the great literatures of Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Chinese, Persian and Arabic. The subtlety and profundity of its works, their varied scope (Tamil is the only premodern Indian literature to treat the subaltern extensively), and their universality qualify Tamil to stand as one of the great classical traditions and literatures of the world. Everyone knows the Tirukkural, one of the world's greatest works on ethics; but this is merely one of a myriad of major and extremely varied works that comprise the Tamil classical tradition. There is not a facet of human existence that is not explored and illuminated by this great literature.
Finally, Tamil is one of the primary independent sources of modern Indian culture and tradition. I have written extensively on the influence of a Southern tradition on the Sanskrit poetic tradition. But equally important, the great sacred works of Tamil Hinduism, beginning with the Sangam Anthologies, have undergirded the development of modern Hinduism. Their ideas were taken into the Bhagavata Purana and other texts (in Telugu and Kannada as well as Sanskrit), whence they spread all over India. Tamil has its own works that are considered to be as sacred as the Vedas and that are recited alongside Vedic mantras in the great Vaisnava temples of South India (such as Tirupati). And just as Sanskrit is the source of the modern Indo-Aryan languages, classical Tamil is the source language of modern Tamil and Malayalam. As Sanskrit is the most conservative and least changed of the Indo-Aryan languages, Tamil is the most conservative of the Dravidian languages, the touchstone that linguists must consult to understand the nature and development of Dravidian.
In trying to discern why Tamil has not been recognized as a classical language, I can see only a political reason: there is a fear that if Tamil is selected as a classical language, other Indian languages may claim similar status. This is an unnecessary worry. I am well aware of the richness of the modern Indian languages -- I know that they are among the most fecund and productive languages on earth, each having begotten a modern (and often medieval) literature that can stand with any of the major literatures of the world. Yet none of them is a classical language. Like English and the other modern languages of Europe (with the exception of Greek), they rose on preexisting traditions rather late and developed in the second millennium. The fact that Greek is universally recognized as a classical language in Europe does not lead the French or the English to claim classical status for their languages.
To qualify as a classical tradition, a language must fit several criteria: it should be ancient, it should be an independent tradition that arose mostly on its own not as an offshoot of another tradition, and it must have a large and extremely rich body of ancient literature. Unlike the other modern languages of India, Tamil meets each of these requirements. It is extremely old (as old as Latin and older than Arabic); it arose as an entirely independent tradition, with almost no influence from Sanskrit or other languages; and its ancient literature is indescribably vast and rich.
It seems strange to me that I should have to write an essay such as this claiming that Tamil is a classical literature -- it is akin to claiming that India is a great country or Hinduism is one of the world's great religions. The status of Tamil as one of the great classical languages of the world is something that is patently obvious to anyone who knows the subject. To deny that Tamil is a classical language is to deny a vital and central part of the greatness and richness of Indian culture.
(Signed:)
George L. Hart
Professor of Tamil
Chair in Tamil Studies
- From: mugil (@ leased-200-20-226.bng.vsnl.net.in)
on: Thu Apr 22 06:14:38 EDT 2004
The above statment was made by professor of University of California,Berkeley.
Here is the link
http://tamil.berkeley.edu/Tamil%20Chair/TamilClassicalLanguage/TamilClassicalLgeLtr.html
The thing here is, we say unity in diversity and we are not able to accept some truths. Its shame that a foreigner comes and does research and says that tamil is one of the oldest languages of world and also it is no way related to sanskrit.
If a tamilian says this truth, you start kicking us.
Every tamilian (who ever speaks tamil) is proud of tamizh and his tamil idenity and culture.
Even if you say ill about him or tamizh he is not going to consider that because its sure that you dont know the truth.
I can give you hell lot of evidence saying that tamizh can be the oldest language(may be sanskrit is also as old as tamizh).
There are proofs saying that, Indus scripts are more related to tamizh(you can call this as proto-dravidian..etc etc.. what ever you like).
Also recently (in 2002-03) archeoligists discovered some scripts which are closely related to indus scripts.these scripts were found in Kurnool of andhra, South Arcot district of Tamil Nadu .
Apart from this, they also found some metal ornaments which are of indus valley style.
For more details about tamil in indus valley please visit www.harappa.com and search for tamil.
One more fact is that, Tamizh is the only oldest LIVING language. Other oldest languages are not spoken by people for communication today.
Tamizh was easy to blend itself to time and changed consistently.Thanks to our old tamizh scholars who are resposible this.
Auother of oldest veda,Rig Veda says that they fought war with the native people.
Some of the many major kings of the Thasar (Tamils) referred to in the Vedas are Samparan, Varacinan, Viruthiran and Susunan with whom the Aryans fought many battles. With Samparan they fought over a period of 40 years. Several sub-rulers and army chiefs are also mentioned. Thanu who went to the battle front to help her son Viruthiran and Kiraki and Arayi, wives of the sub-ruler Kijava, who also went to the front are some of the heroines mentioned. Even today these names are common in parts of Tamil Nadu. The army of the Tamils had women battalions.
More to come....
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