Topic started by Vanchi on Mon Dec 6 08:41:39 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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No, this is not about the lack of certain sounds.
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Responses:
- From: Vanchinathan (@ isdn2.pppmad.vsnl.net.in)
on: Mon Dec 6 08:59:28
I saw in Agaththiyar egroup, someone has given a mnemonic to remember the "order of meyyezhuththu"
Though it is correct, in my opinion he had missed the important fact that that order was, in parts, by design, and not an accident.
I attempted to explain the rationale behind this ordering scheme and wrote it. This naturally led me to think about permissible sound combinations in Sounds and this thread is born. Allow me first to clarify the meyyezuththu arrangement and come back to the title of this thread.
There is no apparent reason for the order of 6 vallinam (6 mellinam or 6 idaiyinam) as an individual group of 6 letters, but
once these groups are formed, to enumerate the complete list of 18 consonantrs a clear logic based on the type of sounds (sound combinations) characteristic to Thamizh language has been used.
¦Áö¦ÂØòиǢý À¡ÌÀ¡Îõ Å⨺¢ý «ÊôÀ¨¼Ôõ
¾Á¢Æ¢ø ´Õ ¦Áö¦ÂØò¨¾ò ¦¾¡¼÷óÐ, «§¾ ¦Áö¨Âî º¡÷ó¾ ¯Â¢÷ ¦Áö ÅÕŨ¾ô
ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ø ¸¡½Ä¡õ. ó¾ ÂøÒ ÅøÄ¢Éí¸Ç¢ø (ð, ü) ¿£í¸Ä¡¸ «¨ÉòÐìÌõ Å¢¾¢Â¡¸§Å ¯ûÇÐ.
1. «ì¸¡, ¾ì¨¸, À¡ìÌ (ż ¦º¡ü¸û: ¾Á¢Æì¸ò¨¾ì ¸¡ñ¸: Å¢ìÃõ --> Ţ츢ÃÁý & Àì¾¢, ºì¾¢, Óì¾¢ --> 'Àò¾¢, ºò¾¢, Óò¾¢' ).
2. «îºõ, À, ¦ÁîÍ,
3. Óò¾õ, º¢ò¾¢¨Ã, «ò¨¾, ÁòÐ ( ż ¦º¡ø ÒòÃý --> Òò¾¢Ãý)
4. ¸ôÀø, ¯ôÒ, Ìô¨À, º¢ôÀ¢
Àð¼õ, ºðÊ, ¦ÅðÎ, Á𨼠±ýÚ ÀÃÅÄ¡¸ ÕóÐõ ¦Åð¸õ , ¬ðº¢ §À¡ýÈ Å¢¾¢ Å¢ÄìÌ ¼¸Ãò¾¢ø ¸¡ñ¸¢§È¡õ.
§¾ §À¡ø, ȸÃò¾¢ø, ¸¡üÚ, ²üÈõ, ¦ÅüÈ¢, ¸ü¨È ±ýÈ¢ÕóÐõ º¢üÀõ, ¦¸¡ü¨¸ §À¡ýÈ Å¢Äì̸ÙûÇÉ.
(ó¾ Å¢¾¢ Å¢Äì̸Ǣɡø ²üÀÎõ Å¢¨Ç׸¨Çô Áü¦È¡Õ¿¡û Å¢Çì̸¢§Èý)
¨¼Â¢É ¦Áö¦ÂØòиû ö,÷,ø,ù,ú,û ÅüÚû ±ó¾ ´ý¨ÈÔõ (ù ¾Å¢Ã) ¦¾¡¼÷óÐ
ÁüÈ ¦Áöº¡÷ó¾ ¯Â¢÷¦Áö¸û ÅÃÄ¡õ, «øÄÐ ¦Áö¦ÂØòиÙõ ÅÃÄ¡õ.
ö -- ¬ö×, ±ö¾, º¡öôÒ, ¦À¡ö¨¸
÷ -- Á¡÷¸Æ¢, §À¡÷¨Å, ÅÇ÷, °÷¾¢
ø -- ¿¡øÅ÷, º¡øÒ, ¦Åø¸
ù -- ??? :-( I've a theory here, I'll explain that later)
ú - ¬úÅ¡÷, §À¡úÐ, Å¡ú쨸, À¢Èú, ¸¡úôÒ, Å¡úòÐ.
û -- ¸ûÅý, ¦¸¡û¨¸
µù§Å¡÷ ¦ÁøÄ¢É ¦ÁöÔõ ¦ÀÕõÀ¡Öõ ´Õ ÅøÄ¢Éò¨¾î º¡÷ó§¾ ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ´Ä¢ì¸¢ÈÐ.
±ó¾ ¦ÁøÄ¢É ¦Áö¦ÂØòÐìÌôÀ¢ý Ûõ ´Õ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢ð¼ ÅøÄ¢É ´Ä¢¾¡ý ÅÕõ.
í -- ¾í¸õ, ÀíÌ, ¯ÈíÌ, Áí¨¸,
ï -- Áïºû, ﺢ, ÀïÍ, ¾ï¨º
ñ -- ºñ¨¼, ÐñÎ, Àñ¼õ, ÅñÊ
ó -- «ó¾, ºó¾¢, º¢óÐ, ºó¨¾,
õ --- «õÒ, ¿õÀ¡§¾,
ý --- ¦ºýÈ, ýÚ, ¦¸¡ý¨È, ¿ýÈ¢
ô§À¡Ð ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ÅøÄ¢Éõ, ¨¼Â¢Éõ, ¦ÁøÄ¢Éõ ¨Å¦ÂøÄ¡õ ±ó¾ «ÊôÀ¨¼Â¢ø «Îì¸ôÀðÎûÇÉ ±ýÚ ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅ¢ð¼¡Öõ,
ÓØ ¦Áö¦ÂØòÐ Å⨺¨Âî ¦º¡øÖõ§À¡Ð, ´ù§Å¡Õ Åø¨ÄÉò¾¢üÌõ À¢ý «ùÅøÄ¢Éõ ÓðÎ즸¡Î츢ýÈ ¦ÁøÄ¢Éõ ÅÕ¸¢ÈÐ,
¸, º, ¼, ¾, À, È
¹ » ½ ¿ Á É
ó¾ ÃñÎ Å⨺¸¨Ç §ÁÖí¸£ØÁ¡¸ô Á¡üÈ¢, Á¡üÈ¢ô ÀÊìÌõ§À¡Ð 'Á'¨Åò¦¾¡¼÷óÐ Â,Ã,Ä,Å,Æ,Ç, Åü¨Èô ÀÊò¾¡ø
¾Á¢¦ÆØòиǢý Å⨺¨Âô ¦ÀÈÄ¡õ.
The classification of Thamizh sounds as vallinam, mellinam, idaiyinam obviously depends on the amount of energy needed
to produce the sounds. it does not take much of an intellectual effort to arrive at these 3 groups.
But the rules built into the Thamizh language on which sounds can appear as the last of a word, and which sounds are forbidden from following
which sounds (that is forbidden juxtapositions) seems to follow a very clear natural law (analagous to what in physics is called as least energy principle which, e.g, explains Snell's law of refraction) that 'the words should be easy to pronounce'.
Look at one formost rule obeyed by Thamizh words
1. No word can end in a vallina mey.
(It takes more effort to make an abrupt stop after the 't' in the word 'cut' than to say a similar sounding word like
'¸ðÎ'.)
In the table below the left coulmn lists words in English that end in a `vallina mey'. See the ease with which correponding similar sounding Thamizh words in the right column can be pronounced.
muck -- ÁìÌ
much --- «îÍ
wet --> ¦ÅðÎ
myth --- À¢òÐ
Perhaps one can try to read the first coulmn fast and then try to read the second column and see which is easier.
If you want more proof read the following English 'sentence' and its Thamizh 'translation'.
NOT MUCH LUCK WITH WET POT
¿¡ðÎ ÁîÍ ÄìÌ Å¢òÐ ¦ÅðÎ À¡ðÎ
Please note that the example I concocted is not a tongue twister.
Thamizh version though takes longer time but less energy.
(In physics the path of least distance is not necessarily the path of least energy, again use Snell's law)
2. DOWN WITH "U"
Again to pronounce a full 'u' at terminal position of a word (especially the ones loaded on a vallina mey) one has
to keep one's lips rounded which requires effort. The kuRRiyalukaram rule to trail off the 'u' is easier on the mouth.
(Any Tamilian who has attempted to speak Telugu will appreciate this. )
Remember the punarcci rules on a word ending with 'u' followed by a word with in initial vowel.
The ukaram disappears. This is again follows the law of ease of pronounciation.
ÜòÐ + ¬Î = Üò¾¡Î
¦ºÄ× + øÄ¡Áø = ¦ºÄÅ¢øÄ¡Áø
3. No words (almost) end with long vowels ('nedil') .
Ending a word with long vowel forces one to keep the mouth open for longer time, a minor strain.
The exceptional words ending with 'nedil' are always for surprise or for question or for addressing a person (8 ¬õ §ÅüÚ¨Á); that is for something that requires an emphasis drwaing the attention of the listener .
ôå𼊠¿£Â¡?
ÐìÌ ¿¡É¡ ¦À¡ÚôÒ?
«¨¾ ±ôÀʧ¡ ¸ñÎÀ¢ÊòРŢð¼¡ý.
«ÅÕìÌ Åý ´§Ã À¢û¨Ç.
¸ó¾¡, §À¡¸¡§¾
There is one more class of exceptions, namely the words of single letter
â, Å¡, §À¡, ¾¡,
Again this exception is natural as opening one's month just for a single 'maththirai' is more difficult than uttering a two maththirai word.
(to avoid abrupt shutting of mouth.)
If you prefer a mathematical explanation, than a scientific explanation here is one:
In one letter words the last letters are also first letters! :-)
'«ì¸¡, «ôÀ¡, «õÁ¡, «ñ½¡, Á¡Á¡' ±ýÀ¨Å¦ÂøÄ¡õ ŢǢ¡ü¸û.
«ôÀý, «õÁ¡û, «ì¸¡û, «ñ½ý, «õÁ¡ý (Á¡Áý) ¨Å¾¡ý ¯È¨Åì ÌÈ¢ìÌõ ¦ÀÂ÷¡ü¸û.
º£¾¡, ᾡ ±ýÈ ¦ÀÂ÷¸¦ÇøÄ¡õ º£¨¾, ᨾ ±ýÚ¾¡ý ¾Á¢úôÀÎò¾ôÀθ¢ýÈÉ.
Actually you can use the 'forbidden nedil at end' to locate the other language words that have crept into Thamizh
¸øÄ¡, (cashbox)
ÌøÄ¡.
But there is a class of examples I am unable to explain away: ÀÄ¡, ¿¢Ä¡, ÍÈ¡, ÒÈ¡, ѽ¡ (thanks to Chandra)
3. Generally a mey should be followed by an uyirmey loaded on the same consonant.
(this is a must for vallinam, and nasal mellinam, but idaiyinam are exempted)
A vallinam sound cannot occur in isolation in the middle of a word.
This is because if we make an effort to utter a vallina mey sound it is difficult to immediately change gears, so we keep going for a while.
Àì¸õ, ¸ð¨¼, â, ¸ò¾¢, ¦¿üÈ¢.
Actually this explains why many Thamizh people pronounce Sekar as "Segar', (or Sehar) Janaki as Janahi (or Janagi)
3a. The idaiyinam which are exempted
3 a. Nasal sounds are (almost) always followed by a 'vallina' mey in a soft avatar
í --> ¦À¡í¸ø
ï --> Áïºû, ﺢ
±í¹Éõ, Á層 ±ýÀ¨Å¦ÂøÄ¡õ «â÷ÅÁ¡É Å¢¾¢Å¢Äì̸û
To pronounce a nasal for long might be a minor hindrance to breath.
- From: Chandra (@ fw-atlanta.atlanta.usweb.com)
on: Mon Dec 6 13:39:08
šﺢ:
ÒÐŨ¸Â¡É À¡÷¨Å.
´Õ ÌÚí ÌÈ¢ôÒ:
"¿¡ðÎ ÁîÍ ÄìÌ Å¢òÐ ¦ÅðÎ À¡ðÎ"
±ýÀÐ
"¿¡ðÎ Áî(Í )ÄìÌ Å¢òÐ ¦ÅðÎô À¡ðÎ" :-))
±É Å¢Õì¸ §ÅñÎõ.
- From: vanchi (@ isdn2.pppmad.vsnl.net.in)
on: Mon Dec 6 23:08:25
Chandra: Yes, you are right.
As a delightful corollary of the above analysis one can arrive at the following:
As Thamizh language is easy for the speakers it is no wonder we find people of Tamilanadu talk a lot
and for long hours (our politicians) and make lot of noise (and possibly led the Telugu people call
our language 'aravam')
:-)
- From: vanchi (@ isdn2.pppmad.vsnl.net.in)
on: Mon Dec 6 23:57:18
ÅøÄ¢É ¦Áö¨Âò ¦¾¡¼÷óÐ «§¾ ¦Áö¦ÂØò¨¾î º¡÷ó¾ ¯Â¢÷ ¦Áö ÅçÅñÎõ ±ýÈ Å¢¾¢ìÌ
Å¢Äì̸û Óý§À «Ç¢ò¾¢Õó§¾ý ( ¦Åð¸õ, º¢üÀõ ÅüÈ¢ø ¼¸Ã, ȸà ´üÚ¸ÙìÌôÀ¢ý À¢È ¯Â¢÷¦Áö ÅóÐûÇÉ)
ùÅ¢¾¢Å¢Ä쨸Ôõ Å¢Çì¸ ´Õ ÓÂüº¢.
¼¸Ã ´ü¨Èò¦¾¡¼÷óÐ ¼¸Ã ÅÕì¸ ¯Â¢÷ ¦Áö ÅÕÅо¡ý ±Ç¢¾¡É¾¡¸ ÕìÌõ ±ýÀ¨¾î º¡ýÚ¸Ù¼ý Å¢Çì̸¢§Èý
¬í¸¢Äõ À¢ġ¾ ¾Á¢ú Áì¸û '¸Ê¸¡Ãõ' ±ýÀ¨¾ ¬í¸¢Äò¾¢ø "Å¡îÍ' ±ýÚ ¾¡ý ÜÚÅ÷.
(µÃÇ× ¬í¸¢Äò¾¢ø ÀâîºÂÓ¨¼Â ¿¡ý «ùÅ¡Ú¾¡ý ÜÚ¸¢§Èý)
'Å¡ðî' ±ýÀ¾¢ø ¼¸Ã ¦Áö¢ĢÕóÐ º¸ÃòÊüÌò ¾¡×ÅÐ ±Ç¢¾øÄ ±ýÀÐ ¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ¦¾Ã¢Ôõ. õÁ¡¾¢Ã¢§Â
¸¢Ã¢ì¦¸ð ÀüÈ¢ ¾Á¢Æ¢ø §ÀÍõ §À¡Ð 'À¢îÍ' (pitch), §¸îÍ (catch) §ÁîÍ (match) ±ýÚ ÀÃÅÄ¡¸ ¬¹¢øó¦¾Ã¢ó¾Å÷¸§Çì ÜÚŨ¾ì §¸ð¸Ä¡õ.
§ÀîÍò¾Á¢Æ¢ø '¦Åð¸õ' ±ýÀÐ '¦Åì¸õ' ±ýÚõ, '¬ð¸û' ±ýÀÐ '¬Ùí¸' ±ýÚõ, '§¸ð¸Ä¡õ' ±ýÀÐ '§¸ì¸Ä¡õ' ±ýÚõ
ÜÃôÀÎÅÐ §¾ ¸¡Ã½ò¾¢É¡ø¾¡ý.
«ÎòРȸà ¦Áö¨Âì ¸ÅÉ¢ô§À¡õ.
(¨¾ì ÌÈ¢òÐ Áü¦È¡Õ ¾¢Ã¢Â¢ø ¿¡ý Óý§À §Å¦È¡Õ §¿¡ì¸ò¾¢ø ÜÈ¢Ôû§Çý)
±ý ¸½¢ôÀ¢ø ȸÃõ ±ô¦À¡ØЧÁ (¾É¢òÐ Åó¾¡Öõ, §º÷óÐ Åó¾¡Öõ, ´üÈ¡¸§Å¡, ¯Â¢÷¦Áö¡¸§Å¡) ¯îºÃ¢ôÀ¾üÌ Á¢¸×õ ¸Î¨Á¡ÉÐ ( ¾Á¢Æ¢ý º¢ÈôÒ Æ¸Ãõ ÁðÎõ¾¡É¡, ȸÃÓõ §º÷ì¸ôÀ¼ §ÅñÎõ)
±É§Å¾¡ý '¸¡üÚ', ¸¡òÐ ±ýÚõ, '§¿üÚ', '§¿òÐ' ±ýÚõ, '¦¿üÈ¢', '¦¿ò¾¢' ±ýÚõ, '¸ü¨È' ¸ò¨¾ ±ýÚõ §Àø
Á¡È¢ÔûÇÉ.
ɸà ´üÚ¼ý ÉÁ¡¸ ÅÕõ ȸÃò¾¢üÌõ §ÀîÍò¾Á¢Æ¢ø §¾ ¸¾¢¾¡ý.
ÀýÈ¢ --> ÀýÉ¢
ý¨ÈìÌ --> ý¨ÉìÌ
«ôÀʦÂýÚ ---> «ôÀÊýÛ
¦¸¡ý¨È ÁÃõ --> ¦¸¡ý¨É ÁÃõ
'«¾üÌ' '±¾üÌ' ±ýÈ «¾¢¸ò§¾¨ÅÂ¡É ¦º¡ü¸¨Ç '«ÐìÌ', "ÐìÌ" ±ýÚ¾¡§É ÜÚ¸¢§È¡õ.
So we can see when the formal rules of Thamizh do not lead to economy (or ease of pronounciation) the spoken version corrects the tendency.
Hope All this makes sense. I am sorry that I did not format this properly or polish my prose.
But I am sure my pont has been made.
- From: sendhuran (@ proxy1.ntu.edu.sg)
on: Sat Jan 1 12:37:28 EST 2000
I also think that it is easy to speak in thamilzh. you can also see how no two sounds are connected like in sanskrit or other north indian languages. for instance "shri","mri","ksh" are actually two or more sounds put together just with a high speed. however i think that lzha is not so easy to say. i think it takes quite a bit of energy. and that letter happens to be in the name of the language itself.
- From: Kajan (@ cpe0050ba1669c3-cm014110219722.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
on: Mon Jun 23 21:13:09
for new members,
revise this thread for ur useage
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