Topic started by vinay (@ adsl-67-39-3-180.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net) on Wed Oct 22 22:07:56 .
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- From: A P MASILAMANI (@ cache203.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Thu Nov 18 21:01:51 EST 2004
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!
Vanakkam. You are right in saying that kaaLi and karu are connected, though kaaLi did not directly derive from karu.My research shows as follows:
The root word is kaL, and one of the meanings of this root is black. It has other meanings too, which are not relevant here.
kaL > karu > karumai verb: karuththal.
kaL > kaRu > kaRuppu verb: kaRuththal.
kaL > kaaL > kaaLi (karuththa niRamudaiyaaL)
kaL > kaaL > kaaLamekam > karupppaka meliruppathu (karumukil)
kaL > kaaL > kaaLavaai (karupukai uLLa idam) - senkal kaaLavaai, chunnaampu kaaLavaai.
kaL > karu > kari, charcoal.
But this does not entirely dispose off the claim that kaaLi came from Bengal. It only shows that it came from the root kaL and related to karu.
- From: A P MASILAMANI (@ cache203.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Thu Nov 18 21:15:43 EST 2004
contd..
Remember the passage cited in a previous posting by me regarding the Bengali language. Researchers say that it has a large base of Dravidian vocabulary. So, it is easy to find words corresponding to Tamil/Dr in Bengali as well.
Could not they have created the word KaaLi from kaL, which can also be their root word?
Therefore more evidence is required to tip the balance in favour of Tamil/Dr.
But the sure thing is that kaaLi is not an Aryan god. The Rig Veda does not hail her as one!!
- From: A PMASILAMANI (@ cache203.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Fri Nov 19 03:34:58 EST 2004
contd..
ON GODDESS ILAKKUMI
Ilakkumi otherwise known as Letchumi, is directly derived from the original word T:ilakku, ilakkuthal, which means to write or draw a line.
Ilakkumi is a personification of prosperity, or the excellence of water and the support for the crops and life that water brings.
The earliest stone inscriptions found have used a simple line ( kOdu, or kOdu ilakkuthal ) to represent her. The line was a symbol representing the excellence of water or prosperity. By 1c BCE, Tamil coins used curved lines (two "S" with a curved bracket "}" underneath in supine position holding the two "S" , the second S was in reverse position, with the lower curve and the "horn" above of it facing the first S )(like two swans facing one another with water underneath) to represent her. This ilakkuthal or ilalliththal meaning writing or drawing, was how the matter was represented.
- From: A P MASILAMANI (@ cache203.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Fri Nov 19 03:36:51 EST 2004
contd...So, it is conclusive and you can see for yourself that word ilakkumi etymologically meant something written, and this usage was specially applied to the concept of prosperity as described above. Linguistic evidence supports and confirms archeological findings.
During the megalithic age (greater stone age) in Tamil Nadu, she was represented in stone. Subsequently she came to be represented in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain religions in the form of sculpture. Thus the concept found adoption and approval in all major religions of the time.
Water comes from aakaayam (see my previous posting for the meaning of this word). ViN means aakaayam.
T: viN > vuNNu > borrowed by others as vishNu. (the sky-god).
You know that rain - water comes from the sky!
Thus, prosperity, ilakkumi became the consort of viN.
niiraayinan > naaraayaNan
naaraayaNan > naaraayaNi - (later concept ) consort of naaraayaNan.
Ilakku > ilakkuthal
Ilakku > ilakkiththal
Ilakku > ilakku + (u)m + i (suffix) = ilakkumi.
Ilakku = any symbol, then: a demarcated place, then: any place.
By 1400ACE or so, Skrt took in the word ilakkumi as lakshimi.
- From: A P MASILAMANI (@ cache203.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Fri Nov 19 03:39:56 EST 2004
contd...
The above postings on gods/goddesses is just an examination of the words as to how they were derived; they do not have any other religious connotations.
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale! I trust you find the above interesting.
- From: kingofkings (@ delhi-203.200.95-130.vsnl.net.in)
on: Sun Nov 21 05:21:45 EST 2004
Statement on the Status of Tamil as a Classical Language
Professor Maraimalai has asked me to write regarding the position of Tamil as a classical language, and I am delighted to respond to his request.
I have been a Professor of Tamil at the University of California, Berkeley, since 1975 and am currently holder of the Tamil Chair at that institution. My degree, which I received in 1970, is in Sanskrit, from Harvard, and my first employment was as a Sanskrit professor at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, in 1969. Besides Tamil and Sanskrit, I know the classical languages of Latin and Greek and have read extensively in their literatures in the original. I am also well-acquainted with comparative linguistics and the literatures of modern Europe (I know Russian, German, and French and have read extensively in those languages) as well as the literatures of modern India, which, with the exception of Tamil and some Malayalam, I have read in translation. I have spent much time discussing Telugu literature and its tradition with V. Narayanarao, one of the greatest living Telugu scholars, and so I know that tradition especially well. As a long-standing member of a South Asian Studies department, I have also been exposed to the richness of both Hindi literature, and I have read in detail about Mahadevi Varma, Tulsi, and Kabir.
I have spent many years -- most of my life (since 1963) -- studying Sanskrit. I have read in the original all of Kalidasa, Magha, and parts of Bharavi and Sri Harsa. I have also read in the original the fifth book of the Rig Veda as well as many other sections, many of the Upanisads, most of the Mahabharata, the Kathasaritsagara, Adi Sankara’s works, and many other works in Sanskrit.
I say this not because I wish to show my erudition, but rather to establish my fitness for judging whether a literature is classical. Let me state unequivocally that, by any criteria one may choose, Tamil is one of the great classical literatures and traditions of the world.
The reasons for this are many; let me consider them one by one.
First, Tamil is of considerable antiquity. It predates the literatures of other modern Indian languages by more than a thousand years. Its oldest work, the Tolkappiyam,, contains parts that, judging from the earliest Tamil inscriptions, date back to about 200 BCE. The greatest works of ancient Tamil, the Sangam anthologies and the Pattuppattu, date to the first two centuries of the current era. They are the first great secular body of poetry written in India, predating Kalidasa's works by two hundred years.
Second, Tamil constitutes the only literary tradition indigenous to India that is not derived from Sanskrit. Indeed, its literature arose before the influence of Sanskrit in the South became strong and so is qualitatively different from anything we have in Sanskrit or other Indian languages. It has its own poetic theory, its own grammatical tradition, its own esthetics, and, above all, a large body of literature that is quite unique. It shows a sort of Indian sensibility that is quite different from anything in Sanskrit or other Indian languages, and it contains its own extremely rich and vast intellectual tradition.
Third, the quality of classical Tamil literature is such that it is fit to stand beside the great literatures of Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Chinese, Persian and Arabic. The subtlety and profundity of its works, their varied scope (Tamil is the only premodern Indian literature to treat the subaltern extensively), and their universality qualify Tamil to stand as one of the great classical traditions and literatures of the world. Everyone knows the Tirukkural, one of the world's greatest works on ethics; but this is merely one of a myriad of major and extremely varied works that comprise the Tamil classical tradition. There is not a facet of human existence that is not explored and illuminated by this great literature.
Finally, Tamil is one of the primary independent sources of modern Indian culture and tradition. I have written extensively on the influence of a Southern tradition on the Sanskrit poetic tradition. But equally important, the great sacred works of Tamil Hinduism, beginning with the Sangam Anthologies, have undergirded the development of modern Hinduism. Their ideas were taken into the Bhagavata Purana and other texts (in Telugu and Kannada as well as Sanskrit), whence they spread all over India. Tamil has its own works that are considered to be as sacred as the Vedas and that are recited alongside Vedic mantras in the great Vaisnava temples of South India (such as Tirupati). And just as Sanskrit is the source of the modern Indo-Aryan languages, classical Tamil is the source language of modern Tamil and Malayalam. As Sanskrit is the most conservative and least changed of the Indo-Aryan languages, Tamil is the most conservative of the Dravidian languages, the touchstone that linguists must consult to understand the nature and development of Dravidian.
In trying to discern why Tamil has not been recognized as a classical language, I can see only a political reason: there is a fear that if Tamil is selected as a classical language, other Indian languages may claim similar status. This is an unnecessary worry. I am well aware of the richness of the modern Indian languages -- I know that they are among the most fecund and productive languages on earth, each having begotten a modern (and often medieval) literature that can stand with any of the major literatures of the world. Yet none of them is a classical language. Like English and the other modern languages of Europe (with the exception of Greek), they rose on preexisting traditions rather late and developed in the second millennium. The fact that Greek is universally recognized as a classical language in Europe does not lead the French or the English to claim classical status for their languages.
To qualify as a classical tradition, a language must fit several criteria: it should be ancient, it should be an independent tradition that arose mostly on its own not as an offshoot of another tradition, and it must have a large and extremely rich body of ancient literature. Unlike the other modern languages of India, Tamil meets each of these requirements. It is extremely old (as old as Latin and older than Arabic); it arose as an entirely independent tradition, with almost no influence from Sanskrit or other languages; and its ancient literature is indescribably vast and rich.
It seems strange to me that I should have to write an essay such as this claiming that Tamil is a classical literature -- it is akin to claiming that India is a great country or Hinduism is one of the world's great religions. The status of Tamil as one of the great classical languages of the world is something that is patently obvious to anyone who knows the subject. To deny that Tamil is a classical language is to deny a vital and central part of the greatness and richness of Indian culture.
(Signed:)
George L. Hart
Professor of Tamil
Chair in Tamil Studies
- From: kingofkings (@ delhi-203.200.95-130.vsnl.net.in)
on: Sun Nov 21 05:24:33 EST 2004
everything given above is attributed to george l hart
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