Topic started by Venky Narayanan on Thu May 13 21:16:09 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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Please post your queries, comments, definitions, explanations etc... about the components and rules of marabuk kavithaikaL.
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Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Hari Krishnan (@ 202.144.10.93)
on: Thu Nov 11 09:36:46
Pas: Just saw your response. What, may I ask, is the meaning of 'azippathUku' please. azippathU makes sense. The poet would not have added a ku without meaning. What would have been the purpose of adding a ku, if any?
- From: Hari Krishnan (@ 202.144.10.93)
on: Thu Nov 11 11:13:37
Pas:
Ƒ: ź ð ә ϙ. ž̫̑ ҿ. ֍ƴ ̿ . 㱍̴. ž̫ 若 ґ, ב ϙ Ϲ ׀ ώ:
Quote:
"׀ ̯ള ґ ϰ Ƒҙ Ƒ ر 鿺ր. ֍ƿ 㱍̴ ͥ ž̫ ׯ ֍ґ Àƙ ѹ گƙ . ϙ ׯ 촱.
̑ ֍ ̯
˹ (662)
ð ̑ ҳ ̑ . ž̫ ( - - ) ð
'̯ ̑ ̙ׯ'
̴. ̑ ̯ള ґ 㑛 鑎ب. ր ؍. ̑ ̀Ƒ 鑎.
ž̫ ðð Ҏ ƿ Ֆ ̑ ̑ - ב. ϙ Ƴ. ̑ ̑ - э ׯ ҙƛ ̑˹ , 㑛, 㑛 źƑ ׯ ր."
Unquote:
װ ֎.
ɛ Û
깱Ƒ ( 793) 깱Ƒ ώ ґ. 깱Ƒ 깳+Ƒ - Ӎ. ̀ ֎:
"
Ґ 鑀" (̀)
إ
˿ (422) 晍 ݍ ̀ƿ љ. "إ 鹳 " . "إ" ֗ װ ϙ. Ƒ ր Ƒ ׳ ( 714) .
㰑
شљ ґ ͳ (235) ݍ ̀ƿ љ. " ƀ. 'ͳ' ﴰ ̙." . ֎. "" ϙґ. . ƍ.
ر ిئ ϙ э æ. כ э 㿺ϙ. ב Ѵ. (A rule is proved by its exception Fowler.) Ƒ //כ Ƒ ב. ر ϙ鰑 րƑ .
̽ ׯ ̑ э ґ 촱Ͽ Ѵ ݙ . ׳ ׳ Ͽ. ב 降ґ. Ѵ ҳ. " Ƒ ת ."
- From: ananth (@ empe-port27.net.mcmaster.ca)
on: Thu Nov 11 12:30:19
Boy Oh Boy! Is this hot discussion or what! I enjoy these exchanges as I would of an exciting thaniavarthanam savAl between two thavils in a nadhasvaram concert or between Zakir Hussain's tablA and VinAyakrAm's ghatam!! Before I make may two-cents worth of comments on this,
Venkat wrote:
"I would love to see other threads like aaciriyam, misc pAs etc. getting to move." I agree with this fully and have been appealing to people on this for a while. However, I would like this veNpA grammar topic discussion to proceed until we all come to an agreement (even if it is to disagree?:))
vAnchi: *I* am the one responsible for interpreting ceppiththu mistakenly as valiththal vikAram in VM and you know it. I sincerely apologize for this. With people like Hari also involved now, soon we will all be so knowledgeable on v.pA grammar that such things will never recur!!:))
Now, as for the non-occurrence of kiim (kurilnedil itai itta mUvacai) in v.pAs, I think the answer lies in the very vAypAdus that are used for veNcIrs: kUvilangkAy and karuviLangkAy (besides the non-controversial thEmAngkAy and puLimAngkAy). We notice that there are no kUvi*lA*ngkAy and karuvi*lA*ngkAy (this has been hinted to by Hari as well). As my citation from rAjagOpAlAchAriyar's book says about the IRRUc ciRs (eg. undesirability of using kadA, kal, etc.), although theoretically all variations of a given nEr or nirai acai can occur in a ciR, the "chastity" of veNpA has been highly valued and people have been very concerned with ceppalOcai(and rightly so) in it. They have therefore "sacrificed" some combinations like kiim. The fact that the grammar books do not then tell immediately in which other pAs they do occur cannot (as Pas argues) be used to imply that they are okay for v.pA. The fact that even in a veNpA, kuRil-nedil acai can occur in 2-acai cIrs (iyaRcIrs) should mean that they are okay for aa.pA and vanjippA.
In essence, I thank Hari for bringing to our attention a very important aspect of veNpA which, even if he couldn't find a book reference, gets its weight in the sheer lack of such kiims in so many of the pAs we know of. The fact that we have to go to such extraoordinary effort to find one (eg.namacivAya; here I agree with Chandra's explanation), should tell us something!
P.S. In writhing such comments in the middle of your work, I am always worried if I missed some important points and said some trivial things in an impulse. If so pizaipoRuththruLvIr!
- From: Pas (@ pas.dialup.cs.toronto.edu)
on: Thu Nov 11 14:27:56
Nagoji, Hari,
Thanks for correcting the naaladiyaar example as an aLabedai; it must have been a typo in the book I have! Sorry!
Chandra,
You probably mistook me. I did say that Thol has shown where UricIrs (banned from veNpaa) appear..namely in akaval/vanji and this is discussed in Thol urais/Yappu nUls.Similarly I wanted to know if readers know of instances where kiim (not found in veNpaa) is found. You suggested kalippA. Can someone give some examples where kiim IS used. If not to be found in any category of pA, I would be surprised..because I like to think that all types of Ocai have been categorized by our elders. If kiim creates a different Ocai, it should be useful for pA-s with that Ocai, right? That is all I said. Just as important it is to know what is not allowed in one type of pA, is it not also fair to ask where it is allowed , if at all allowed anywhere? ( Now I understand from Hari that it is not written down in any Yaapu ilakkaNam ..hence makes sense why it was not discussed in such nUls)
Ananth,
For 1-asai nirai cIr , there are only very few words which are kuRil-nedil. So I can understand the relatively rare occurrence in the last cIr of veNpaa. But my feeling is that there are many such 3-asai cIrs with kiim.. hence my surprise ..
..
Hari,
Thanks a lot.!.That was very revealing.!.. you perhaps misunderstood..I did look at ILampUraNar (IP), but I have only seyyuLiyal.pakuthi1..and I could not find it there...but your quotations etc make a lot of sense... The only questions I have for you (just to increase my understanding):
1. It is generally said that ThiruvaLLuvar basically preferred 2-asai cIrs to 3-asai cIrs; will this have anything to do with our topic.
2. As I asked Chandra, are there other pA-s where such kiim cIrs are acceptable... I feel as if I am fighting for these orphans whom noone seems to want!:-))
3. Don't misunderstand me... I really welcome such informative details which really are educative...Please do continue to enlighten me.!..
Definitely, I was also wonderstruck that we could not find counterexamples in such a large body of veNpaa literature... Definitely indicates that this "unwritten" rule is followed... No doubt about it.. All I wanted to know, if this affects
ceppalOcai, then it must be suitable for "some" other oCai...what is it? ( I have not studied many of the other forms of pA... so I am just curious..)
4. the way your mail suggests; the vaaypaadu seems to be more than vaaypaadu ! is this the right way to think? I was always under the impression that these stood for a larger class and were just mnemonics.
Should we use the vaaypaadu more strictly to suggest the type of cIrs to be employed?
5. If kuril-iNai is preferred in the middle of a 3-asai cIr, then it may explain why nErbu+nirai (such as ARumugam) or niraibu+nirai (which will produce such kuRiliNai)was later used by poets ..even though this was not allowed by Thol. What is your feeling?
Please continue to delight us with these gems of knowledge! I just lap it up like ThirunelvEli Halvaa!:-))
- From: Chandra (@ fw-atlanta.atlanta.usweb.com)
on: Thu Nov 11 16:54:47
Hari,
I am still digesting the stuff you have stated especially re: "UROrAl"
Pasupathy:
Re: "kuRil-nedil" as veNpA iRRacai, they are perfect. As you have stated there are only so few words with that pattern that it can give an appearance. If you required that the veNpA end in that pattern using tree names only, then almost all tree names in Tamil end in AkAram like palA, viLA, marA, nunA etc.
Thanks to Hari's quote we can replace "kiim" with
the nice Tamil mnemonic viLAngkAy. :-))
Pasupathy:
vanjcippAs are, as a friend of mine would say when being fed too much as a guest, "municipal kuppaith thotti", accepts pretty much any 3/4-acaic cIr. :-))
Re: uriccIrs' prohibition, that tholk. has explicitly excluded them even though it has not even stated defined what a veNthaLai is let alone explicitly state that only veN thaLais can occur in veNpAs says a lot.
- From: Pas (@ pas.dialup.cs.toronto.edu)
on: Thu Nov 11 17:21:08
Chandra,
:-))
There should be a nice VanjippA with "viLAngkaay maNdai" in it!:-))
- From: venkat (@ vectra2.riken.go.jp)
on: Thu Nov 11 19:30:09
pas said,:-If such words are found in plenty in some other forms, then I am more likely to accept the idea ..
he later added desperately:- I feel as if I am fighting for these orphans whom no one seems to want!:-))
Thanks for sharing my feeling. But, as you said, orphans they are, very few (thanks to the well bound language, tamil is), so no one talks on their behalf. My long round of search in various pAs is leading me to believe that these words themselves are little and when they happen their second nedil can be elided as a kuril.
chandra said; kAyccIrs are not exclusively veNcIrs. kalippAs are mainly kAyccIrs.
consider this kalam nUrpaa,
è ø ⦠ޚ
è ¡Ģ Ũ ....
I somehow feel you have a half hearted interest in anything other than manunIdhi now :-)) (Pl. do not take it seriously, I meant to say that we miss your full learned comments on these issues, â¡ پ).
There are no kali uriccIrs, the iyarcIrs are for aaciriyam, kaay cIrs are for veNpa and kaniccIrs are for vanji. Kalippa uses plenty of kaaycIrs for the simple reason that veNcIr veNtaLai is one of the key thaLais of kali (next only to its native thaLai) , and thEmA and puLimA are forbidden there, so the only option left is to use kaays
I also felt deeply hurted when you said vanjippaas are like corportion dustbins, to protest that I will try a vanji today and post it.
Now, coming to hari,
1. I am glad, very glad to hear that you want to write (or you already have them) and want a place to post them - welcome to yappuvalai, no one will be happier than me. Please send me some info. on what sort of materials, they can be either put in one lot or arranged to be serialized, but definitely, I hope yappuvalai can be a better place. Discussions on them can be carried out in forumhub.
2. As to your feelings about heated arguments here, we were all longing to have these kind of issues here. So, you are a boon here. This has been adequately expressed in all our postings. So, rest assured that we are "very happy" to discuss these issues here.
Now, coming to the matter in question, I clearly see that bu-bu combination and viLAnkAys are not expressed explicitly after thol, say kalam and karikai and this morning I read from Dr. Annie Thomas' yappiyal that no other texts talk about them either. Now, this morning reading also threw a new light, there were indeed contrasting schools even in thol period, thol happens to stand as he put his (his schools') views on solid footing. And there was no grammer work of any significance for next 10 centuries!!! Which has lent an ever higher solidity to thol. For example some pAs in paripaadal does not fit into any classification of thol, that does not mean that paripaatal is non-yappu or less serious work (learned deemed it a fit anthology of its period). [The preceeding statement is Dr. annie's, I have not yet read paripaatal] So, thol is not THE word. Also thol was (and is) interpreted in different lights by uraikaararkaL later.
What I would like to stress is we can take kalam and kaarikai as the starting point, (they themselves evolved over 10 centuries of post thol). Besides in modern learning of yappu, bu cIrs are not considered, thol does not talk about thaLai, but we talk about them in great detail every where. So, I would like to restrict myself to kaarikai for prescriptions.
Then suggestions are different thing altogether, for a pA these restrictions are not needed, for a 'good' pA we must definitely mature to frawn bu-bu or viLAnkAys (and whatever that surfaces). The fact that vaLLUvar has not used does not lend more credibility to the frawing rule (with due apologies to the great man). Modern structural linguists say that all works have a preferred (not grammatically restricted) structural patterns. kuRal and silambhu are two great works par excellence. But silambhu has a better yappu scope than the former, as one can see that silambhu led way to latter day poetry like vaazthu, paN, oppari, etc.
Hope I make myself clear. We are talking about prescriptions (medicines) and suggestions (patthiyam). To remind, I am looking for your mail regarding your contributions to yappuvalai.
- From: Hari Krishnan (@ 202.144.10.93)
on: Thu Nov 11 20:33:24
Pas э: 㑛 㑛 ׯ ** ҙ. kiim ݹ. ̑ ב Ϲ . . ҍ Żϙ. ؍晐 .
̢ Ƒ ؍晐 Ƒ ՛: () ̍ ѹ Ž. / ׯ? ׯƑ, Ƒ post ׯ? ϴ ב/ À (ҳ) ׀ ϙ鰑? ׀Ƒ ϴ ϙ. 㑨 ѹ ׯ?
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