Topic started by V. Venkataramanan on Thu Jun 3 23:07:29 .
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Responses:
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- From: Ramji (@ 205.177.170.59)
on: Thu Jun 17 12:13:40
Venkat:
Enjoyed your healthy discussion with Mani.
Sorry for digessing, can you suggest a place where I can get puthumai pithan's books? I live in Maryland, USA. Thanks
- From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Thu Jun 17 15:32:29
venkataraman,
as a first one it is a good one.
(i will send the email next week. sorry for the delay.)
- From: venkat (@ vectra2.riken.go.jp)
on: Thu Jun 17 21:34:49
arLarasan, thanks. Looking forward to..
Ramji, try http://www.tamilcinema.com/books/newbooks/june.htm for online purchase. The books are priced various slabs. You are lucky, from Maryland you can buy, in tokyo, I cannot. Enjoy!
- From: venkat (@ vectra2.riken.go.jp)
on: Thu Jun 17 21:42:49
Mani,
At this point I want to make our discussion mutual as not many in the forum seem to be interested. Also answering to your lastest round of questions (you put me as a school kid) would amounting me divesting some bare details, which I would not like everyone to be thrust upon. I must answer to all your questions, to respect the time you spent on them. Can you tell me your e.mail address (I guess the one shown here is m/c name)?
- From: vanchi (@ isdn1.pppmad.vsnl.net.in)
on: Fri Jun 18 07:19:38
Just read manivannan's detailed analysis and comments and the reponses they generated. Makes a very interesting discussion. I was under the impression that venkat was right and that a story should not be built but MaNivaNNan's pointed questions asking about a Rao reading Engel's and saiva sidhdhantham really made me accept mani's point of view.
yes, venkat you have some 'hidden agenda'.
Those details, as accurately, pointed out by MaNi
bring out the author's bias.
Atleast, if you believe in what you say, you should now curb the tendency (that is the author passing someof his personal bias using the narrator as a vehicle). The authors are unable to resist an opportunity to plant such subtle things.
That is one reson I could not stand Sujathaa after I crossed my teenage. You can clearly see the author an intelligent, clever observer
using (or abusing) his characters to pass his personal bias or traits.
Talking about that "kuthiraikkadi" story you mentioned, see Sujaathaa's own comments on that story where he proudly flaunts his powers of observation in being able to recall the details about Munucipal hospital, Kuthirailaayam and other 'scenes of actions' of that story. Even though here the author's interference is only about physical descriptions of locale etc, you can see Manivannan's theory at work. Author's through some subtle method, consiously or not, plant their
own imprint. The problem with Sujaathaa is even when the narrator is a ZThinathanthi reader you can see his (Sujaathaa's) own intelligence oozing out of his characters choice of words, and the observations they make incompatible with the
explicit education/sophistication of that character.
Great are those authors who could come out of that temptation.
I don't consider story's like Necklace (or most of guy de Maupassant, OHenry, and most of Sujaatha)
where the story is built from the lastline like a detective story so that it carries maximum punch.
It makes the story a game the author plays choosing to hide details and releasing them at places/time convenient to him for 'passing his message' I can't stand O Henry's
Watch and Hair christmas gift story, because the events are assembled to give that punch The choice of gifts are author's (and author retains the control in choosing what his character's will sell to purchase the gift for their spouce, so that the story has maximum punch. I can't see such a story
as anyway better than a well-written whodunit)
Ashokamiththiran, Saa. Kanthasaami, or writer's
in the limited reading of Tamizh I possess, two writers who have never yielded to such temptations (or minimised their effects).
- From: venkat (@ vectra2.riken.go.jp)
on: Fri Jun 18 08:26:09
Dear vanchi (and mani)
Oh, good observations. I shall comment more about the smart obsevations (they can be viwed differently). Take for e.g. sujatha's story in question, the hero is an ordinary kiccaamy character. The writer as you have correctly pointed out, makes his 'usual' smart observations.
In his enthusiasm to set the scence of action perfectly, he has left holes in the flow of the story. The narrative elements set the scene of action (actually, I could smell horse excreta in the story), but does not quite fit with the mundane chap here making smartie quips.
But, in my own story - the hero (narrator) has been portrayed as an above average character, he indeed is intelligent, gets scholarships, achieves (but misses rewards), etc.. Smart observations are in place here.
To make the point, instead of answering to all questions of Mani, I will explain the first, saiva siddhanthin, with name 'rao' - there is a bit of history here. During the dravidian movements thanjavur district was the most influenced (still one of the DMK strongholds), there were incidents of vandalising the temples, cutting the sacred threads, etc. There was a decline in 'belief'. When most of the brahmins were too intimidated by these, so called other upper casts stepped in. In many places there were real one-man bakti renaissance movements. Notable among them were the marattas of thanjavur (the descendants of Raja Sarfoji), who stood it courageously. The Nagasamy 'rao' is a typical thanjavur marata name (as R.K. Narayanan puts kitchen language marati and street language tamil - further reference to their lifestyle in thi. jaa, raa's mOkamuL). They mainly targetted children (motivation to preserve the continuity) and they never discriminated between caivam, vaishnavam, etc. All they wanted was to promote belief and such a man giving prizes for kan_da caShti kavacam is not blaspheme.
Such observations help build the scence of action, I guess is not out of place here. Besides it is an incident which gets etched in the hero's mind (and the character gets petrified). I guess answer to other questions (red wrapper Engles .. if you look into it carefully with the above background should fit). Rest of the questions of mani, I must say, will have similar answers. To put it in a nutshell, the answer to most of the mani's questions regarding finer details are -- 'history'.
I would abstain from dissecting my story further. I would be glad to see someone else doing that.
To some general observations of mani, I will return back here and answer. To mani, I must thank as this is developing into an interesting discussion.
- From: Ramesh (@ triumph.msc.cornell.edu)
on: Fri Jun 18 13:19:02
Mani,
I now get to know how to figure out 'hidden' messages even if the author did not intent one. I am dissappointed that Venkat plans to carryout a dialogue and
deprive other members of this hub, the essence of your discussions. In the meantime, another member has thrown in some interesting comments too. Despite my
reservations about 'messages', I am happy that you have been able to pull out few hidden messages/themes? from the story (A hallmark of a good story according to
you) . I stick to my earlier post that a good short story does not 'tinker' with the natural flow, and need not contain a 'message/theme' Now let me look at your
comments and Venkat's response. Nagasami 'Rao', to me is just a name, even if it had any another 'extension' that really does not change the flow and further events
of the story. Now looking at the hidden message, let us assume Nagasamy had another surname. Would that convey a different message to you? If that were the
case, the bias is with the reader or the writer? (I assume Venkat's explanation/justification for 'Rao' does not invalidate this question) If you carefully read the story
only the narrator asserts 'Nagasami rao is one man saiva siddhantha sabhai' and not rao himslef in first person singular. This gives the writer enormous freedom to
portray Rao in a later stage as anything. I see no inconsistency in rao's portrayal. It is very probable that rao bought Engels full volume (especially when it was so
cheap in the USSR heydays!). This is very realistic, as I personally know an ardent member of 'dravidar kazhakam' having a huge collection of RSS literature. Again,
"Rao mama communist' is only the narrator's assertion and not rao's. As far the scholrship at school/colleges, all one could see is how the system treats children of
people from organized sections(such as teachers, bank employees or government servants who have no way to underplay their 'big income'!!) from the unorganized
sections (such as 'poor' grocery shop owners, or landlords who can write down anything as their income and get away with it). This perfectly flows with the story as
the narrator after all describes events where he deserves a reward and inches ahead towards the counter, only to be denied at the last minute, for no fault of him. Other than this if the names convey any hidden message, I guess that has a lot to do with the reader's bias . Don't you agree?
I will have hesitation
in counting this as a good short story, despite it's intelligent presentation, not for the reasons you have listed, but for other reasons based on its artistic form and content. I am glad to find one other reader
agreeing that good short stories are not built. A good writer (like PP )is rare and very different from skilled craftsmen like Kalki(except in some of his short
stories),Sujatha and Balakumaran . After all this is akin to the difference between a sculptor and a skilled mason. Vanchi's mentioning of Asokamithran and
saa.Kandasamy in this connection is perfect. I would like to cite some of the excellent works in contemporary Tamil. Unassuming, true in expression and rich in terms of artistic content. (this includes Short stories, novels, essays, and poems as well)
Thunbakkeni - Pudhumaipiththan,
Amma vanthall - Thi. Jaanakiraman,
Karaintha Nizhalkal - Asokamithran NaaLai, matrumoru Naale - G. Nagarajan,
En peyar Ramaseshan - Aathavan,
Thiraigal Aayiram - Sundara Ramasamy,
Sathuranga kudhirai - Nanjil Naadan, Sayaavanam - Saa. Kandhasamy, Puyalile oru Thoni - Pa. Singaaram, Aatru maNal - Kannan Mahesh,
Sanagalin kadhai -
Pazhamalai, Karukku - Selvi. Bhama,
koththai paruththi - Ki. Rajanarayanan,
Katrin Paadal - Samaya vel,
UravugaL - Neela. Padhmanabhan,
Esther - Vanna Nilavan,
Thamizhin Naveenathvam - Premil,
PS1: This list is not conclusive and I have deliberately left out Mauni and Na. Pichchamurthy as they deserve a separate
discussion. I guess going through even a part of the list above will equip one to say between a sculptor and mason. PS2: This message was not run through a
spellchecker, forgive me for any typo. Warm regads, Ramesh
- From: vanchi (@ isdn1.pppmad.vsnl.net.in)
on: Sat Jun 19 02:19:39
Read Parisu again (in aaRaamthiNai). The author's
posting above saying that his narrator is an intelligent guy and so all the things uttered/observed by the narrator are very much consistent with the picture one gets of the character.
But as the author admitted he has a hidden agenda
(DMK activism in Thanjavur dist, Marattas since Serfoji's days etc)
But whether it is fair on the part of an author to
plant his own observations, knowledge or not,
many a time I have read some authors mainly to catch such things and so could benefit from reading. Finall from a personal (ie selfish)
viewpoint I read books for enlghtenment, or entertainment or for gaining some new knowledge.
If I could get authentic information
it is okay with me even if it gives the story a
'crafted' look. As many publishers put it on the blurb "whether you agree with (or like) what the author says or not you have to read the book"
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