Topic started by Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.114) on Tue Jan 2 16:37:51 .
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This thread is for English poems whether they be free verse, sonnets, or other metered poems. While wondering how to state the purpose of this thread, I was struck by all that this thread isn’t meant to be. So let me state what it isn’t and leave it up to participation to continue to define what it is.
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Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.118)
on: Fri Mar 30 15:53:47
Robin,
I responded right away to yours. To some other poems I took my time responding. Response is not a predetermined thing, people respond as and when they find time. Don’t assume the worst about this thread or the lack of reaction to your latest. If anything we have all repeatedly asked you to share your stuff with us here. If you want to take offense at “dhana” asking questions about your poem then I must ask you to take another look at yourself as an artist. No matter how apparent or sacred an artist’s creation, there have always been wide ranging interpretations, especially to the controversial, difficult pieces. No interpretation should bother you this much. If you feel you have been unfairly received, just make your case. Art will not thrive without interpretation or discourse.
- From: vj (@ chme6pc4.ecn.purdue.edu)
on: Fri Mar 30 18:28:23
robin,
Some of my favorite lines were:
"I bodied her body/with my body", "I sensed the grooves on their stomach/And thus formed my concept of sexuality".. I thought the ending was feverish and conveyed the sense of dismay and confusion of an individual working within a system (which is a recurrent theme in your poems).
On the dormancy, I posted a prose poem to which I got one reply and that was to ask me to listen to Bob Marley and live Life a little! But I knew what I had written was special. When you write anything and present it for an audience, you are at their mercy and when they dont show any mercy, you will have to turn to yourself or your work for strength. I dont think artists can afford to be angry or discontent with the audience. Keep writing, and as difficult it is to do it, write foremost for yourself.
- From: robin (@ 202.54.125.86)
on: Sat Mar 31 12:21:59
Thank you very much for the postings. Thank you dhana, udhaya, nalini and vj. Yes the writer is often at the mercy of the reader. I once wrote some years ago a line, expressing my idea of the role of the writer as I saw it (then), 'The writer has to die so that the reader may live', and the line 'The writer has to write in red blood so that the reader may read blue ink', that was when I had not met any so called writer or critic, my encounter with these so called 'CREATIVE writers' brought to the fore the sheer shallowness. they all got down to mere word-sentence construction that were absolutely fascinating, but none of them were willing to take a stand. Everyone takes a middle stand, write good verse or prose with compelling language and win friends. It is very elitist. If writing was to be universal and for the people, then one should sing poetry in corridors, and read and enact plays on the quadrangle or basement of the university. That is what Allen Ginsberg used to do. He used to sing poetry. 'Of course that cannot be done on the net'.
Coming to my poem, and to Dhana's questions, to begin with, I had expected south Indians most of all to understand this poem. it is very sad to see even the south indian consciousness declining in its own right. In the history section of forumhub, there is a thread 'why do indian temples have erotic sculptures', it is very sad to see even the south indian consciousness declining.
Havent any one seen the recurrent theme of the woman and the lover in south indian sculptures, If you were to notice them , in all the sculptures the lover of the woman is child like in his stance and the woman has a posture like that of a mother feeding a child. This has also been explored in the mother and child theme of european paintings.
But this theme of the centrality of 'mother' (do not read 'mother' as woman) in 'human' development is most deeply dealt with in south indian culture. Infact the whole of south indian culture is based on the the celebration of the body especially that of the woman (angika bhuvanam yayasa) (meaning 'the body as the world'), the corner stone of shiva philosophy which is also the corner stone of anything and everything southindian, including bharatanatyam, the sacred dance that celebrates the eternal universe through the celebration of the beauty of the body. Truly south indian concept of beauty is the only thing more beautiful than german music that I have come across. It is the only thing more beautiful and powerful than wagner music or mahler music, for me. and I believe for those who understand what i mean by the 'south indian concept of beauty'.
when I wrote the poem, i wanted the description of the mother to be universal and culture free. So i consciously deleted the word saree in the line 'I saw them in my mothers costume (the saree)' the saree was deleted, but as I said (wrote) in my poem the concept of sexuality is formed in childhood in the interaction with the mother and her friends. In deed the postings, shows that it is true. I did not give the slightest indication of the women in my head being southindian, (because my mother is southindian) but even thought I did not mention it, I am sure that most of the southindians who read the poem must have got the imagery of a woman in saree, in the lines 'I sensed the grooves on her stomach'. In fact that is the line I liked the most and that creates the imagery of a woman in a saree, i was least surprised when vj wrote that he liked the line, ' I sensed the grooves on her stomach, the fact that he liked it is an UNCONSCIOUS realization of the southindian concept of beauty that one has learned from ones mother.
(the term sexuality as explored in the southindian sculptures and the philosophical writings of the german-jewish writers like freud and adler alfred is very similar, the concept of sexuality is as broad as the concept of life and creation and creativity). In fact one of the psychoanalytical understanding of the necessity of males to be artists is the need to compensate for not having the womb. (that is an aspect of sexuality). after all europeans and jews are NOT americans, if you know what I mean. So do not read 'love' as you would read it in a 1980's pop song lyrics. love here is far from that. it is pretty southindian, european and jewish in its essence.
The fact that the line liked most often is 'I sensed the grooves on their stomach', indicates how deeply rooted the south indian concept of beauty is here. The lines most liked by many south Indians are
I saw them in my mother's
costume
and saw their graceful
hips ____
and erect bodies
I saw their sensuously flowing abdomen
with sensually curving waists and flanks.
and as they took me
in their arms and clung me
to their bodies
and especially the lines
I sensed the grooves on their stomach,
And thus formed my concept of sexuality.
In southindian culture the beauty is the saree beauty of the hips and the waist and the grooves of the stomach, the fact that most liked that line says a lot.
But a non southindian especially a non subcontinental person would probably like the lines:
And when I placed my head on
their shoulders
holding their breasts tightly
the women I saw ____
loved me.
because most non-subcontinental concepts of beauty stress long legs and broad shoulders. I tried to make this poem as universal as I could. Yet our concepts of sexuality comes through, this indicated that we truly learn our concepts of sexuality from our mother, (nothing American about the term sexuality here, it is very southindian in its essence)
There is much more to it, especially in the later part of the poem, but I find it hard to be explanatory about it. But I have hinted at it, in poeme no9 and 8. I think you can read through them to know the later part of this poem. It most of all refers to what I call as repressive schooling, which is ironically celebrated as a symbol of elitism and independant education. Often overlooking the fact that being independant is not the same as being alone. (all in the name of making a FINE MAN).
At the end of the day, I want to apologize to Dhana for being so upset at his/her interpretation. I am sorry Dhana, please accept my apologies, I could have deterred you from being frank in your opinions in the future. I am very sorry about it.
Thank you all very much.
- From: Sundar (@ ip16.79.blca.blazenet.net)
on: Sun Apr 1 16:15:06
I'm reminded of a story they tell about Sibelius (the composer of Finlandia), walking with a friend. Apparently the discussion turned to inspiration, and Sibelius waving his hand at the open country said that all nature was a symphony. A crow flew by, cawing loudly. "And there", said Sibelius "goes the critic".
We do need to play both critic and composer here, Robin.. If we don't get it, we don't get it.. And if we get something different from what you did, well that just makes for a more interesting world, doesn't it ? =)
I'm kind of intrigued by the parallelism between your and vj's work - there is a certain anatomical echo here, in what we read. Is this more of a guy thing? Ladies - I know Nalini is active - and any lurkers, please respond, if you would. Is there an Electra equivalent memory out there to this Oedipal trend ?
Yes our ideals of beauty are classically different from other cultures. Not everyone celebrates the "trivali" - the triple fold of the belly or the fine hairs on the abdomen. Yet these are celebrated in verse as marks of beauty. We need to be careful here though. I have read a translation of the Sundarakaandam in which Rama is referred to as having long arms that reach down to his knees. While he is often addressed as "mahabahu" - great armed one - I doubt if knuckle dragging would qualify as an esthetic =)
Now I'd take issue with this from Robin:
"Infact the whole of south indian culture is based on the the celebration of the body especially that of the woman (angika bhuvanam yayasa) (meaning 'the body as the world'), the corner stone of shiva philosophy which is also the corner stone of anything and everything southindian, including bharatanatyam, the sacred dance that celebrates the eternal universe through the celebration of the beauty of the body."
I don't see that as a consistent statement. I think the Abhinaya Darpana of Nandikeswara specifically targets its ideal:
"Angikam bhuvanam Yasya
Vachikam sarva Vangmayam
Aharyam Chandra-taradi
tam Vande sattvikam Sivam "
All the worlds his limbs
His words permeate all language
He wears the stars and moons as ornaments
I worship him, Shiva, the essence of Existence.
Now, this concept doesn't easily extend to woman, not without a certain leap of imagination and faith on our part. I could count out several classica quotes that go quite the opposite way denigrating women.
The person who for me best reflects this conflicted ethos is Bhartrhari - a man way ahead of his time, IMO. He celebrates woman as the bringer of joy and - to him - the snare that traps him in this world.
The point being it is not necessary that the South Indian ethos celebrates the eternal universe through the celebration of the beauty of the body. I think this may be wishful thinking on our part, and maybe a little interpretive history.
The unfortunate after-effects of repeated reactions to Buddhism, Islam and Colonialism is a sort of hardening of the conservative other-worldly reflex, rather. Remember that the "sacred dance" you refer to had to be kept alive by courtesans. I wish we could say that they were all temple dancers, sacred and dedicated to God. The reality is rather, and that economics dictated that most devadasis became rajadasis.
Okay enough rambling from me.
I'm actually going to go back to a prior theme. Has anyone tried to translate the sort of "burning love" song feelings in Indian languages into English? does it flow? I'm sure many of us have at least thought - oh that's a neat line - when we heard them in Indian languages.
- From: vj (@ chme6pc4.ecn.purdue.edu)
on: Sun Apr 1 16:19:56
robin,
As the story goes, I didnt even think anything Indian (let alone South Indian) about this piece... and so, the saree never figured. About your mention of the themes in S.Indian philosophy: A philosophy or culture can be called "Indian" or "American" only if it is practiced. Most Indians today are unaware, and even if aware, are not practicing and thinking along the lines of our ancestors. It is but a few historians and interested Indians who read and understand our past and philosphy and the rest understand it merely in a symbolic way. To most, India resides in symbols and is viewed through the looking glass, like how I would look at the south indian sculptures and marvel at.
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