Topic started by Isai Rasigai (@ 38.220.167.197) on Fri Sep 22 10:05:59 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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I would like to know more about the usage/non-usage of vivadhi swara in these 2 ragas...
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Responses:
- From: narayanan (@ 194.193.249.33)
on: Fri Sep 22 10:26:44 EDT 2000
IR:
Welcome Back...nice to see you here again :-)
- From: IR (@ 38.220.167.208)
on: Fri Sep 22 10:38:44 EDT 2000
Thanks Narayanan - I have been a silent spectator all along ::))
so what are your views/understanding on this topic??
- From: narayanan (@ 194.193.249.33)
on: Fri Sep 22 10:38:53 EDT 2000
IR:
Was able to find the foll. information on the net...
...From RMIC...
Hamsanadham
There is some conjecture whether Shatsruthi Dha occurs in this
ragam or not. It is a janya ragam of mele 60, Nithimati.
It is one of those janya ragams that is more popular than its
parent.
I have seen the arohana/avarohana as
S R2 M2 P D3 N3 S / S N3 D3 N3 P M2 R2 S
This makes it a vivadi raga.
The Net raga list (http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/~ksanthan/ragalist.txt)
lists it as:
|60| S R2 M2 P N3 S | S N3 P M2 R2 S
In this case, if D3 occurs, it can be considered to be just a gamaka
from N3!
This raga has become popular because of Thyagaraja's
Bantureethi Kolu in this ragam. I am not sure if the
Dha occurs in this piece. Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar's
recording of this krithi was probably one of the first.
Chitti Babu's recording of this was probably one of the first
Carnatic music pieces I was exposed to!
I don't think there are compositions by Dikshitar or Shyama
Sastri in this ragam.
I am also aware of two GNB compositions:
1. Dasashatadala
2. Bharama Ee baluni brova
I have been taught the latter without the Dha but the notation
in the GNB book shows that it does occur. Sanjay Subramahmanyan
makes the point that many of the compositions in the GNB book
have been completed (or at least notated) by S. Kalyanaraman, who
was a proponent of the use of D3 in Hamsanadham.
The Dha occurs at the end of the chitta swaram for Dasashatadala and creates
a very nice effect. (NS'NDN) Again, it is unclear if the chitta
swaram is GNB's own or has been added by Kalyanaraman or someone else.
Madhyamakala kalpana swaras also sound good in this ragam.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from Sangeetham.com (sangeetham talk old format)
The arohana/avarohana of hamsanadam are:
s-r2-m2-p-d3-n3-s s-n3-d3-n3-p-m2-r2-s
and is a janyam of the 60th mela, Nithimathi.
However, the vivadi swaram, d3 is generally avoided while rendering this ragam. A good discussion on this is available in Sangeetha Kalanidhi T. V. Subba Rao's book `Studies in Indian Music' in the chapter on the `Vachamagochara and Banturithi'.
Another ragam where the vivadi swara is generally avoided is Amrithavarshini
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- From: IR (@ 38.220.167.208)
on: Fri Sep 22 10:42:30 EDT 2000
Does anybody have that book and could we get info on what it has to say??
Narayanan - I once remember S.K rendering hamsanadham with dha3 and I was totally lost as to what the raga was as it changes the entire swaroopam of Hamsanadham - (with dha3)... he then announced the ragam as hamsanadham :)
I have been taught and mostly heard only Hamsanadham sans dha3 ...
- From: narayanan (@ 194.193.249.33)
on: Fri Sep 22 10:44:50 EDT 2000
IR:
I have read somewhere that Dikshitar has tried to avoid the vivadi swarams from the vivadi ragas/ther janya ragas, as much as possible. I would expect that dikshitar's version of Amrithavarshini would be without the vivadi swaras.
- From: Ramaprasad (@ 204.154.176.49)
on: Fri Sep 22 11:00:50 EDT 2000
I guess original version of Hamsanada did have
the shatshruti Da.
But where is the vivadi svara coming into
Amrita varshiNi ??? Which js the vivadi svara
you guys are talking about ??
Ramaprasad
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp17.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Sep 22 11:15:48 EDT 2000
Hello IR ! Hight time you returned to the threads :-)).
re Amrtvshini , although one version treats this as s g m p n s - no vivaadi, it is possible that some prayogas might incorporate the vivaadi swaras found in either Varali or Chitrambari melas. This may be a legacy of HMB.
It is not clear whether Amritavarshini is itself an MD creation. It seems from the extreme spontaneous nature of the production of his famous kriti ( based on the pentatonic ) that it may likely not involve vivaadi swaras, just an opinion.
- From: Ramaprasad (@ 204.154.176.49)
on: Fri Sep 22 12:09:45 EDT 2000
Nadopasaka ..
You say
"re Amrtvshini , although one version treats this as s g m p n s - no vivaadi, it is possible that some prayogas might incorporate the vivaadi swaras found in
either Varali or Chitrambari melas. This may be a legacy of HMB. "
Why varali ?? Have you heard anyone singing
Sudhamayi with these svaras ? I haven't.
Ramaprasad
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp29.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Sep 22 12:11:53 EDT 2000
It is of some note that the other MD kriti with a Rain motif, Megharanjini ( vrstiprada… ) is also a pentatonic , s r g m n s.
Further , like Amritavshini, ( which is prati madhyama) , this raaga may also be related to Kamavardhani=Pantuvarali mela ( whose Varali overtones surface once in a while ) .
Somewhat interesting that MD did not bring out the Varshaa concept more ( not counting pushpa varsitena ) . The great drought of Ettaayapuram could not have lasted for too many years. Probably felt like he could not stop any deluges invoked with his special talents.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp29.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Sep 22 12:17:34 EDT 2000
KVR, HMB has created a few Vivaadi raagas, SuddhaLalita etc. TNS is a candidate for such an adventure.
- From: IR (@ 38.220.167.208)
on: Fri Sep 22 12:32:33 EDT 2000
Thanks Nado :) I am most definitely reading all of your wonderful postings... just a little short of some "personal time" to do stuff I enjoy :)
- From: Nadopasaka (@ afppp6.buffnet.net)
on: Sun Sep 24 12:59:10 EDT 2000
re. Vivaadi melas/raagas it seems that the purvaanga vivaadi swaras are dealt with more often in krities, for e.g. Varali. I'm not sure about how much (or how) the Shatshruti Dha is treated in ChalaNaata. Indeed SyamaSastri has no krities in any other vivaadi raagas. Vivaadi melas are also quite resistant to meaningful tonic shift.
The Shatshruti Dha in Tyagaraja appears a bit more e.g. Vaachamagochara, EmaniPogadudu apart from Hamsanadam and Naata etc.
Is Vivardhani considered a vivaadi raaga, although a janya of HariKamboji ? This might be an example of the bhashanga vivaadi swara.
In my opinion, by classifying as 'Dosha' or flawed ( i.e. to be worked around etc. ) , the vivaadi concept has succeeded in limiting the scope and imagination of many to the 32 samvaadi melas and their janyas in CM. SyamaSastris repertoire is one example.
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