Topic started by shivaranjani (@ 203.197.132.175) on Sun Feb 27 23:45:01 .
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Responses:
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp26.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Feb 28 02:27:41 EST 2000
Please confirm or give the correct STARTING svara for the following 8 Bilahari krities by Tyagaraja.
Your diligence in answering this query should go a long way towards your music book sales. Hopefully you won't have to inundate the discussion pages with your ads. while your web-site is constructed.
Narasimha Nannu - shadjam
Kanugontini - gandharam
Dorakuna - rishaba
Intakanna ananda - dhaivatam
Sarasiruha Nayana ??
Na Jeevadhara - gandharam
Ne vegane Nannu ??
Toli Janmamu - nishadam
- From: Lakshman (@ ppp2509.on.bellglobal.com)
on: Mon Feb 28 09:26:04 EST 2000
shivaranjani:
I have a number of songs for which the composer names are not known. Will you be able to provide any help here? I tried sending you an email message but there seems to be something incorrect about your address.
- From: Lakshman (@ ppp7756.on.bellglobal.com)
on: Mon Feb 28 09:58:44 EST 2000
Nadopasaka:
It is interesting about the starting svaras for Tyagaraja's songs in Bilahari. I checked in Kriti Mani Malai of Rangaramanuja Iyengar and the starting notes for some of the songs are different from what you ahve stated. For instance Intakkannanada, Toli janmamuna and Dorakuna start with shadjam while Na jivadhara starts with panchama in his book. I was under the ipression that the notation was set by the composer. Do you have any explanation for this?
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp8.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Feb 28 10:36:20 EST 2000
Lakshman
The swaras I put down were just approximations.
Kriti Mani Malai is certainly the authority.
I was trying to establish that there is a method to Tyagaraja's profusion of krities in a raga.
This exists clearly with Dikshitar, since typically the talam is different. But there are so many more krities by Tyagaraja in some ragas. I think there are about 4-5 Bilahari's by MD. up to 20 Todis, Pantuvaralis, S'bharanams etc.
I think the shadjam in Dorakuna and Toli Janmamu must differ though, based on listening. Perhaps you can check that, please.
- From: Lakshman (@ ppp7895.on.bellglobal.com)
on: Mon Feb 28 14:38:13 EST 2000
Nadopasaka:
Toli janmamuna starts with the following svaras:
saa saa sa ni ni dha paa || maa gaa ga ri rii ga ri saa. The rii ga ri is sung at twice the speed.
Dorakuna uses the following svaras: saa rii gaa paa - ; ; paa dhaa || saa ; - sa ni nidha || paa ;
-ma ga ri ga rii. ri ga rii is sung at twice the speed. This is from Kriti Mani Malai.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp5.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Feb 28 17:05:31 EST 2000
Lakshman
I guess I viewed the shadjam as different because of which one ( lower vs. upper is being used )
On an apples-to-apples basis Dorakuna starts from below and heads upward and the reverse is true for Toli J. It would be great if you could out down similar phrases for the others you may have.
On second thoughts, we should let Shivranjani complete this exercise !!
best regards
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp64.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Feb 29 12:55:39 EST 2000
Shivranjani
Still waiting for your reply to the starting swara question !! No peeking into Lakshman's work !!
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp2.buffnet.net)
on: Thu Mar 2 11:24:34 EST 2000
Shivranjani et al
Looking forward to the Starting swaras, please.
Thanks
- From: natyacharya (@ m51.chn.vsnl.net.in)
on: Fri Mar 3 01:27:14 EST 2000
Natyachrya Sri s. Bala chandra Raju
Music & Dance dirctor & Teacher
Culture in charge for TN ncc
Hon member for Music book publishing committie of TN
Nadopasaka blessings
Your diligence in answering this query should go a long way towards your music book sales. ????
Rendering Kruthis is not only by a starting notes. The note get its stucture by the gamaka i.e. the slide where it comes. The janma sthana of gamaka of any note only identified as a starting notes. This will very by singers to singer usage by practicaly. This is a pratical experience only for the accompani artists (violinists) OK Without the proper gamaka if you sing in the same note also it will differ for the musical ear’s. here i gave starting swaras and janma sthanas also. For ex- you mentioned ‘Intakanna’ as daivata, its true, but the starting note is sadjam only- Gamaka janma sthana for that sadjama is daivata. If you render plain sadjama then the melody ear like some other composition.
Narasimha Nannu - shadjam janma sthana rishaba
Kanugontini - gandharam janma sthana Panjama
Dorakuna - Sadjama janma sthana rishaba
Intakanna ananda - Sadjama- janma sthana dhaivata
Sarasiruha Nayana Sadjama - janma sthana daivata
Na Jeevadhara - gandharam janma sthana panjama
Ne vegane Nannu -Gandara - janma sthana rishaba
Toli Janmamu - Sadjama janma sthana daivata, most of the people singing as a ahada gamaka from nishadam, if you sing NS then it resembles s’rabarana.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp14.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Mar 3 08:05:27 EST 2000
Sir, please ignore any flippant impatience. Thanks greatly for the detail of your answer.
Kriti Mani Malai gives the following information for 3 of the kruthies.
Toli janmamuna starts with the following svaras:
saa saa sa ni ni dha paa || maa gaa ga ri rii ga ri saa. The rii ga ri is sung at twice the speed.
Dorakuna uses the following svaras: saa rii gaa paa - ; ; paa dhaa || saa ; - sa ni nidha || paa ;
-ma ga ri ga rii. ri ga rii is sung at twice the speed. This is from Kriti Mani Malai. Not sure if KMM gives janma sthana.
Could you cite your sources, please ?
I would like to pose a question about Sri Tyagaraja which is the main reason for this Starting Swara question. There are many ragas in which he has composed several krities . There are 8 Bilahari krithies, and possibly 20 krities each in Todi, Kamboji, Pantuvarali etc. Many of these are in Adi tala. Sri Tyagaraja is a great saint but as a musician and composer, is it likely that he 'carefully' constructed each kriti, that is 'planned' them out such as the great Muthuswamy Dikshitar. If we observe the Bilahari's they seem to start generally over the entire range. If there is a similar survey of the Tyagaraja Todis, I wonder if this kind of deliberation will also appear.
There is little doubt that Sri Tyagaraja appears to have had life-changing experiences. But by treating him as a saint and his music as uncontrollable outbursts, his compositional skill can be ignored. I agree that the Pancharatnas SEEM to be the result of much preparation. Is it easier to believe that the Lord himself was speaking through Tyagaraja's krities ? (and sub-consciously (Tyagaraja's consciousness that is) exploring all facets of these ragas )What about ragas where there are no krities or only one ? Did he simply run out of time ?
As you know the Tyagaraja Aradhana has become a very big deal in India and the US. Given the Hindu view of saints and mythology ( observe that the KRITHIES have become KIRTANAS ), it seems that this person will soon become a myth (as an enlightened person and Rama Bhakta, no doubt)
Thanks for any comments and answers.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ afppp45.buffnet.net)
on: Sat Mar 11 20:47:53 EST 2000
Natyachrya Sri s. Bala chandra Raju
Music & Dance dirctor & Teacher
Culture in charge for TN ncc
Hon member for Music book publishing committie of TN
Respectfully yours,
I am hoping you can give the source for the starting svaras and janmasthanams you mentioned above. Maybe also comment on the points raised. Thanks greatly
- From: Nadopasaka (@ afppp5.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Mar 14 23:10:55 EST 2000
Hi, Shivranjani
Please give the source for the ahad gamakas and starting svaras you gave earlier. Thanks and looking forward to your comments.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp7.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Mar 21 03:21:16 EST 2000
Hello, testing testing anybody home ? Shivranjani ??!
Seems like we are disconnected. Still looking forward to your sources and comments.
- From: IR (@ dialup-63.210.141.207.boston1.level3.net)
on: Tue Mar 21 06:37:49 EST 2000
::)) may be that was only for publicity Nado ::))
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp14.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Mar 21 14:05:09 EST 2000
Isairasigai What do you think about the 'ahad gamaka' or svara-janmasthanam as described above ?
- From: IR (@ dialup-63.210.155.11.boston1.level3.net)
on: Tue Mar 21 14:14:43 EST 2000
I pass Nado :::::))))
- From: Nadopasaka (@ afppp46.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Mar 21 14:21:52 EST 2000
now that speaks volumes isrgi :-))
- From: natyacharya (@ m50.chn.vsnl.net.in)
on: Wed Mar 29 01:27:13 EST 2000
Seems like we are disconnected. Still looking forward to your sources and comments.
Hello, testing anybody home ? Shivranjani ??!
::)) may be that was only for publicity Nado ::))
Isairasigai What do you think about the 'ahad gamaka' or svara-janmasthanam as described above ?
Blessings for all. I already informed you. Every month I have to complete a music book.
Yet 45 books released. Now 8 books on line. {Hello, testing testing anybody home ? Shivranjani ??! } ofcourse peoples are available, It is not for publicity also. What all the dought you have that is explained very much in the book karnataka isaiyil gamaka swarngalai paduvadu matrum vasippadu eppdi ? OK.
'ahad gamaka' or svara-janmasthanam
It is not ahad - ahada gamaka one among the ten gamakas.
Our ancestor derived some toandfro movements of the sound as gamakas. This is derived the original sounds of the Vocal, Veena and Flute. These sounds are termd as how the sounds are occured in Sanskrit. They are ahada, prathyahada, dalu (assending-decending), spuritha, andola, kampitha, thripuchcha, arohana and avarohana. I said normally gamaka means toandfro movements. So, when sings are playing on any instruments, definatly you must skate one place to another place by sound. when playing ahada gamaka for one note you should skate from the lower note to gamaka swara. Here the sound raise at the lower note and complete at the gamaka swara. Since the lower note is known as janma sthana i.e. birth place of a gamaka swara. For every note you must play gamaka in all the ra'gas. Some ragas have febale vibration some have bold in the vibration. This are known as heena gamaka raga & bahu gamaka ragas. This is explained sceintifically with illustrations in my book karnataka isaiyil gamaka swarngalai paduvadu matrum vasippadu eppdi ? Even if you think this is for publicity the stuff will solve your doughts no. Not only these things and many more. This book is a rescarch book which appriciated by somany music emminents. But the purpose of the book is not for publicity, but real service to the music learners and even professinals too.
Isai rasigai , Mr .Nadopa.... do you know to read Tamil then you can buy this book. If the Qustions are new then Answering also interesting. The answers are available with more detail in my book, then ....?.The book is available in Newyork, losangels also. If it is not available you can send mony Indian ruppes Rs 52 and + postal charges I'll send by post. For your qurry, see i gave answer even ... I din't satisfied, since there is lot to tell about this, which is available in the above book.
Blessings.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp84.buffnet.net)
on: Wed Mar 29 02:16:45 EST 2000
Namaste, Natyacharya ! Thanks for the details. Nothing wrong with a little publicity, or even competition etc. After all, the West is basically a land of shopkeepers.
I only have one question right now.
What is your source for the janmasthanams etc. for the Tyagaraja Krities such as all the Bilaharis above ?
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