Topic started by Ravi Kiran (@ 164.164.70.54) on Mon Dec 4 00:39:56 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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The Hindu Folio on music (3rd Dec) carried some of the opinions of some of the leading young vocalists.
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Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Ramji (@ 205.177.170.144)
on: Fri Dec 15 09:57:41 EST 2000
This discussion has been an enriching experience. Inspite of the seeming differences, we all seem to be bound by the common denominator, namely love of music. As lovers of music, let us open our heart and soul to the infinite potential of music to be all-pervasive, all-embracing and thus omnipotent.
Let us give our soul-mate TMK a chance.
- From: Chandra (@ rr-165-123-208.atl.mediaone.net)
on: Fri Dec 15 14:20:55 EST 2000
aruLaracan wrote:
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gOpAlan,
bakthi as you define is very "generic" in nature. as puduhai sreeram put it, does carnatic music sound sweet/soul-elavating/blahblahblah without "religious"
bakthi. the theoretical aspects of carnatic music doesnot take in to account religious devotion, as far as i know. then why restrict it to that alone? this is my
question.
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good question. Actually neither the theory of tamil music nor the theory of the original taxonomy of expressions (meyppADu) gave place to bhkathi (or "shAnta rasa"). There were only eight meyppAdus.
Bhakthi was added much later.
TolkAppiyam commentators as late as seven-to-ten centuries ago rejected shantha rasa as a serious meyppAdu.
Maturai Aciriyan Bharadajwajan Nachchinarkiniyar writes in the commentary of the sangam poem maturaik kAnchi ..."since music evokes erotic feelings, the prostitues used yAz music to enchant their clients"
Note the reference to yAz not to a lyric.
Hindolam is romantic...even if the lyric is "mAl marukan" or "mA ramaNan".
The sangam era anthology "pAripAtal" the oldest collection of carnatic music compositions states again that prostitutes used yAz music to evoke erotic feelings.
After all the original grahabhedham system was embedded in the taxonomy of emotions of akam or romantic themes.
aruLaracan wrote further:
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a digression: a teacher/friend of mine, an iitm physics professor, gave me a copy of an article he wrote in which he traces the origins of carnatic music to at
least the period of nAyanmArs. though, he is not a tamil, he believes that carnatic music might have its origin in the cangkam era; it's just that, according to him, we don't have enough evidence
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aruL, thank god you friend/prof at least acknowledged that carnatic music is traceable to tEvAram era...!
I am amused by people "struggling" to trace the oriign of carnatic music...this is not a coffee-club-conversation subject. This has been settled. There are countless musicologists who know this. There is scholarly scientific evidence to map exactly the so-called carnatic music to the music system described in cilappathikAram.
a few dozens lines (quite a lot in an epic to deveote to technicalities) of Chapter 3 describes very precisely and explicitly the paNNup peyarttal ( "grahabhedham") system of the seven pAlais (mELakarthas).
Then the Aycciyar kuravai chapter shows how the seven cowheredess were assigned notes for harikAmbOdhi and mOhanam.
What was in disupte was only the mapping of current raga *names* to old pAlai/paN names and not the inherent structure of the system of music. It was resolved by VPK Sundaram in a stroke of genius by noticing the order in which the four thiNais were listed in a poruL cUtram: mullai, kuRinjci, marutam and neytal instead of the usual kuRinjci, mullai, marutam and neytal.
Venkatamakhi simply reorganized the taxonomy by forgetting about the grahabhedham system. He did this during the days when Marathas and Telugus were ruling Tamilakam ripe for cultural confusions.
It is intellectually numb on people's part to recognize origins of carnatic music only to the ThiruvArUr trinity's days (just 200 years ago) and then straight on to the vedas. These trinity were living smack in the middle of the hotbed of Tamilnadu's cultural acitivities; they not only learned the system of Tamil music from locals but they knew Tamil literature as well.
After all, the cIkAzi trinity AK, MarimuththAp piLLai and muththuth thANDavar had preceded them and had lived in the same disticts as them.
aruNakirinAthar's compositions, which are a repository of all tALams known, composed 300-400 years earlier to them were known to them too.
. aruNakiri's poems have thALams that are even beyond the currently classified thALam system.
TN Seshagopalan says that from the lyrics of the telugu trinity it is clear that they had learned Tamil classics like Kamparamyanam also and borrowed Kampan's concepts.
Of course TNS also makes it a point in his concerts to tell the audience that his music is the same as the cilappathikAram music.
Has your friend read VPK sundaram's work or others before him like Vipulananda adihaL, Ramanathan, Sundaresan et al.? He can talk to musicologist Abhayambika who has a written a treatise on this. It is not a debate anymore in scholarly circles that carnatic music is nothing but the sangam era Tamil music.
Anybody reading sangam classics would find that there are so many casual references to musicology in the texts. Many poets themselves were carnatic musicians (pANans); they mention names of ragas such as naivaLam (a kuRinjci raga) etc and to musicological concepts such as paNNup peyarttal (grahabhedham), tiRam (audava rAgam), names of notes and, technical names of parts of instruments and so on. Other Indian literature contemporaneous with sangam classics lack such sohpisticated musicological references.
As I said before this subject is not a subjective domain. Either people appraoch is in a scholarly fashion or admit that tehy do not like to approach the truth. I can only give them references and point to scholars to enlighten them.
- From: aruLaracan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Fri Dec 15 17:41:39 EST 2000
chandrA,
:-)). i will mail your posting to my friend/teacher.
- From: ark (@ ro05-24-29-233-246.ce.mediaone.net)
on: Fri Dec 15 20:11:36 EST 2000
Ravi Kiran,
>> i feel that
>> >>> ....could try to find where the
>> >>> impediments...<<< is a point worth taking.
>> could it mean that TMK perceives his music as being detached from any religious
>> overtones or whether he INTENDS striving to produce music that is free of any
>> religuous connotations?
More of the latter but I don’t think he wants to *always* exclude religion from music. On the contrary – instead of always having carnatic music identify with religion, I believe he is making a call to *also * have carnatic music that is not religious.
I read the article again and there are some points he makes which I don’t quite agree with (and perhaps these caused some of the responses in this thread):
>> (3rd para from bottom)
>> It is more important that we understand Carnatic music as an art form, if it has to
>> spread and flourish in the new millennium. Respect and reverence has to be given to
>> the art for its depth, intensity and grandeur, as art music. Its lyrical content is a
>> personal choice made by the composers and does not define the music
Lyrics don’t define music i.e. poetry does not define music? That seems a little blunt. Perhaps by itself it is not, in the strictest sense, but to me, poetry with music is much larger than music itself. Shouldnt we be asking as to whether lyrics *enhance* music as opposed to whether it *defines* music?
If you take lyrics out of a Thyagaraja composition, would it still have the same “soul” (don’t know what other word to use it here)? I don’t think so.
(But note that it does not also mean that carnatic music *composed without lyrics/poetry* is not music – both lyrics and ragas have “souls”)
>> (last para)
>> From the days of the thevaram to today, Carnatic music has had a glorious growth and
>> will continue to do so. It needs to be taken to the international arena parallel with any
>> other classical form. This can be achieved if we understand it in the right perspective
>> and don't lose it to religion.
“lose it to religion” – Does he mean that religion has a negative influence causing carnatic music to be lost or does he mean religion is “eclipsing” carnatic music? Either way I don’t agree. Religious compositions do contain an extra dimension. But that does not necessary mean it is a necessary ingredient - which is how I interpret most of the views in that article.
In any case, an interesting (and bold) article, an interesting discussion - thanks!!!
Regards
ark.
- From: ¦À.ºó¾¢Ã§º¸Ãý/Chandra (@ rr-165-123-208.atl.mediaone.net)
on: Fri Dec 15 21:52:40 EST 2000
TMK is quoted as saying:
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>> From the days of the thevaram to today, Carnatic music has had a glorious growth and will continue to do so. It needs to be taken to the international arena parallel with any other classical form. This can be achieved if we understand it in the right perspective and don't lose it to religion.
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This international thing again...which is a code word for white ethnics.
Why on earth are these brown men all the time after approval by white men? Why not strive to make the music spread (again) among the very people who originated this and whose emotional orientation created this divine music?
This music is for the soul...not an international export/import item.
I see the same urge in modern Tamil writers...to get their writings appreciated by the "world" again by the "white". (honestly I do not think they ever had a conference in Timbuktu in their minds where they receive standing ovation!).
The white guy has too many things on his plate to care for your stuff, while the masses in Tamilnadu are getting no solace from the stupid movie music doled out by music brokers like Ilaiyaraja and Rahman.
[I know I am quickly losing the favor of Ilaiyaraja fans like aruLaracan and Kiru..:-)
Hey I am telling the truth...when was the last time Ilaiyaraja produced an album you could keep listening to thousands of times...he has produced a thousand albums, may be. Their fans keep propping him up by writing articles where they claim this song is Sindhubhairavi ragam etc. A friend quoted that article and said what I had to say to the author of that article...I knew he listened to Sudha R.'s Bindhumalini album and has been listening to the "eppO varuvArO" track in that for the last few years; I asked him when was the last time he heard a product like that from Ilaiyaraja...he shook his head in negation. I said even "ottakaththaik kattikO" is claimed by its composer to be mOhanam! I said these brokers know they are cheating people for money's sake but had to feel good about themselves so they throw this raga thing; I explained to him that there are a few small things like singing the same note for a few seconds longer or vibrating around it that can make all the difference between a lyric listened to for all times to come and a lyric forgotten until the next movie album is released]
The people do not know that there is such a form of music which can go really deep and save them from consuming anger, depression, disappointments and even from suicides...go open this music up to them...nay, return it to them without diluting it (the way it was 40-50 years ago).
- From: ark (@ ro05-24-29-233-246.ce.mediaone.net)
on: Sat Dec 16 10:54:32 EST 2000
Chandra,
Interesting that both us concentrated on two different parts of the same para!!
I don’t agree with all of your views but let me first say that is not because I think you are wrong and I am right.
First of all you are absolutely correct in saying that it is more important to see that carnatic music flourishes once again in the south, in India, before worrying about its reach to other masses. But, correct me if I am wrong, it seems like you are interpreting TMK’s words such that you think he wants recognition among white man more than among anything else. I am not sure I will fill in the blanks that way. And also, to become “world-famous”, reach world-wide fame etc. is not a “failing” ((:-)) of just the brown man. It is in the white man, black man, yellow man, green man, blue man etc. etc.. In short, it is in all humans.
Secondly, regarding Ilayaraja and Rahman’s music, a person’s reasons for liking some music is his/her own – it does not have to pass judgement of the others. As long as an artist’s music is enjoyed by millions even for a fleeting moment in time, that is an achievement and *I* wont “dismiss” that. Yes – their music probably wont live as long as other, but that does not mean it is not music and it is not worth listening to *by others*. Tamil film music has always contained some songs with a classical touch. It is more “diluted” (as you put it) w.r.t to classical touch now a days. But why is that wrong? Are people claiming that these are carnaric krithis? Was film music – pure carnatic music to begin with? Have carnatic musicians started to sing these songs in carnatic concerts? Has this music affected carnatic music?
Finally, what do you think about (what I think are) the central issues TMK was raising – should carnatic music always be associated with religion?
Regards
ark
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