Topic started by nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on Wed Jul 5 08:39:04 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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It has been suggested that a thread be started for discussing tala and for sharing some answers to our questions and confusions. Here it is! |
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: S (@ wwwgate2.motorola.com)
on: Fri Jul 7 07:50:00 EDT 2000
>>>... Actually, isn't this the same as melkalidam adi thala? Isn't that what the Bantu rethi song is?<<< Nick, I supposed u meant mukkaalidam ( tamil for three-fourths location ). Actually, banTureeti, marugelarA, sarasasaamadaana etc are taken off at onnarai/ondrai idam ( one and a half idam ), since they r in middle tempo ( 1 kaLai chowkam ). An example of a mukkaalidam eduppu song is ksheenamai ( mukhari ) in 2 kaLai ( slow tempo talam ). The eduppu is still 6 aksharas in fast tempo after the beat, or 3 in the slow tempo, but relative to the speed of the talam, the take off point is three-fourths ( wrt the interval between say the clap and the first count ). The same displacement would become a 3/8 eduppu in a 4 kaLai speed ( ultra slow tempo talam ! ).
Coming to desadi, madhyadi etc, these were ways in which talam was counted for bhajans etc. Tyagaraja took some ideas from there, and the talam for some of his compositions can either be counted in these bhajan style fashion ( deshadi etc ) or in the carnatic style adi. Examples of compositions that can be sung in deshadi are bantureeti, marugelara etc. Egs of compositions that can be sung in madhyadi are nannupalimpa ( mohanam ), naamakusumamula ( sri ). There is also a mode known as 'usi' in bhajans, and compositions such as karunasamudra - some versions ( devagandhari ) can be sung to the usi mode.
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Fri Jul 7 11:22:22 EDT 2000
Yes, of course you are right, once again apolgies for my mispelling.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp19.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Jul 7 11:24:18 EDT 2000
There appears to be no Deshaadi taala in either MD,SS or HMB krities. The Pancharatna krities of Tyagaraja all appear to be in Adi Tala ( might facilitate the bhajan style that is applied to them now ).
In contrast the Ghana Panchaka of MD in Ganapati krities uses different tala for each cf. mahaganapatim manasa - nata- caturashra ekam; shri mahaganapathi - gowla -triputa ;lambodaraya namaste- varali khanda capu; shri muladhara shri -adi; ganarajena raksitoham -arabhi - mishra capu
Human imagination is boundless, Nevertheless, is there any raaga, for which only one taala is used in all krities within it. Ragachudamani, Supradeepa etc. do not count :-))
- From: narayanan (@ 194.193.249.33)
on: Fri Jul 7 11:39:00 EDT 2000
Nado:
Chamaram and hindolam are good examples. MD has composed only in Roopaka Thalam for these ragas.
- From: N adopasaka (@ adppp27.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Jul 7 11:54:05 EDT 2000
This is correct, Narayanan. I was also looking for this phenomenon generally. There seems to be Adi tala occurring in Hindola krities. Marivere (PSI) may also be in Adi.
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.86.162.163)
on: Fri Jul 7 12:55:30 EDT 2000
i have observed that many krithis which are in vilamba roopakam are often rendered in thisra eka vilambam.
ofcourse, from a student's point of view, it is much easier putting the vilamba thisra eka thalam rather than the vilamba roopakam where there is a tendency to miss the thalam sometimes.
- From: S (@ wwwgate31.motorola.com)
on: Sat Jul 8 02:03:50 EDT 2000
Ravikiran, the 'vilamba roopakam' which u speak of , I assume, is for kritis such as neerajaakshi kaamaakshi ( hindoLam ), mahaaganapatim ( todi ), srisubrahmanyaayanamaste ( kaambhoji ) etc. Firstly, >>>the vilamba roopakam where there is a tendency to miss the thalam sometimes<<< that u talk of is the two claps one wave in 2 kalai chowkam. As u know, the 2 clap, 1 wave is a short form ( SF ) for the right royal way ( RRW ) of counting rupakam, with one dhrutam and one laghu ( default chaturasram ). So the 2 kalai SF rupakam can be counted as 1 kalai RRW rupakam. It can also be counted in 2 kalai tisra ekam ( TE ), as u say. The only marginal advantage of the RRW over the TE method is that in case the composer has carefully intended that certain sylables split at the laghu beginning of RRW ( or the second clap beginning in SF ), these map on to the nishabda kriya of count in the TE. As I said, it is only a marginal advantage, and either TE or RRW is an acceptable substitute to the SF.
Secondly, there is at least one composition that I can think of in 2 kalai RRW rupakam. This is muthukumarayyane ( sankarabharanam ). In this case, the vilamba rupakam counting style u have in mind ( 2 kalai SF ) will not do; it is only the 2 kalai RRW that is correct in this case.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp48.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Jul 10 14:28:49 EDT 2000
S, a digression is Muthukumarayyane a Papanasam Sivan kriti ?
How do vainikas, especially, assuming MD as the composer above, build-follow the hand motions and claps described above ? Most of the composers do not appear to be associated with any percussion instrument, which is perhaps irrelevant to laya. (Perhaps SuddhamMaddalam Tambiappa had some input with MD )
- From: S (@ wwwgate31.motorola.com)
on: Mon Jul 10 23:48:23 EDT 2000
>>>S, a digression is Muthukumarayyane a Papanasam Sivan kriti ? <<< Nado, it is of much older vintage. It is a composition of Ramaswami Sivan ( elder brother of Mahavaidyanatha Iyer/Sivan ). I shall take up ur other query a lttle later.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ abppp9.buffnet.net)
on: Thu Jul 13 15:14:17 EDT 2000
The notion that a composer , certainly one as supposedly 'spontaneous' as Tyagaraja may have had access to an external laya source , such as a mridangam accompanist at all times is difficult to envisage . However all great vaggeyakaras seem to have a bunch of selfless and nameless disciples, so this cannot be ruled out. The quality of the internal clock and consequently the tempo of the krities however, might therefore be a function of the ragas effect on the composers personality based perhaps on the time of day, blood pressure and other physiological factors, Fervor and calm might well alternate along with hunger, lack of sleep etc. In this sense discussion of the tala of a kriti would appear to be inseparable from the raga.
- From: S (@ wwwgate32.motorola.com)
on: Fri Jul 14 00:10:08 EDT 2000
>>>How do vainikas, especially, assuming MD as the composer above, build-follow the hand motions and claps described above ? Most of the composers do not appear to be associated with any percussion instrument, which is perhaps irrelevant to laya.<<<
>>>The notion that a composer , certainly one as supposedly 'spontaneous' as Tyagaraja may have had access to an external laya source , such as a mridangam accompanist at all times is difficult to envisage.<<<
Nado, this regards ur quries/comments on composers vis-a-vis talam. It is true that for a well structured composition, rhythm, symmetry and musical excellence must blend in seamlessly and composers of the stature u have mentioned definitely would have had an in-depth knowledge of aesthetic rhythmic constructs in addition to music. It is not necessary that mridangam accompaniment punctuates the beats - composers can themselves reckon the talam, and also in their mind's picture, perceive the multidimensional image of their composition ( wrt rhythm and musical pivots ). Tyagaraja has used sangatis to great effect to emphasize symmetry and phrase partioning with respect to elegant, simple rhythmic primitives. Also, ksheenamai, chakkani rajamargamu, etavunara are cases in points, where the composition seems to be built of a lot of beautiful self-supporting phrases and the grand picture is of course aesthetic - sort of fractal effect. Dikshitar's compositions have the short and long syllables falling in place very naturally to total up to the tala count. In some cases, if one recites the words, it seems that they almost strictly follow a chandas/metre. He has not overdone this though, and has introduced elegant variations, and given importance to music by slowing these phrases to vilamba kala. Egs of extremely metred phrases ( in music ) can be found in tiruppugazh and of course in sanskrit literature. SShastri also embedded very elegant laya patterns on his kritis, svarajatis etc, and imparted a sheen to chapu talams.
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Thu Jul 20 08:50:33 EDT 2000
Another beginner's question:
I am curious about the ubiquitous ThaDhiGhiNaThom phrase. How did the enthusiasm for fitting permutations of 5 into the music come about? Any ideas?
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aippp34.buffnet.net)
on: Thu Jul 20 14:46:29 EDT 2000
this may be related?? to the Shiva Panchakshara (5 syllable) and also the related Narayana Ashtakshara (8 syllable )mantras.
- From: paaNini (@ 202.142.67.29)
on: Fri Jul 21 05:59:06 EDT 2000
has anyone heard/learnt a rattai pallavi?
- From: Lakshman (@ hse-kit-ppp38891.sympatico.ca)
on: Fri Jul 21 09:30:50 EDT 2000
Panini:
I heard a rattai pallavi recently in a concert by Lalgudi's niece Jayanti on the Vina with her mother Rajalakshmi playing the violin. The ragas were Kiravani and Kalyani. They performed alapanas , tanams and the pallavis independently in the two tagas.
Here is what P.Sambamurti says on the topic:
Rattai pallavis (two pallavis) are an interesting variety and are unique by themselves. The whole pallavi in this case consists of two independent pallavis with independent padagarbhams, perfect in themselves and melodically blended. The first pallavi naturally suggests and leads on to the second. Both of them admit of independent treatment.
- From: PPN (@ padma.math.mun.ca)
on: Fri Jul 21 12:52:56 EDT 2000
Is "rattai pallavi" the same as pallavi sung in two ragams? There are many such examples.
Balamurali sings Anandabhairavi + Amritavarshini
(Aparaka karunakari sachidananda bhairavi Anandamritavarshini janani pahi mam). There are many other examples, bhairavi + sindubhairavi (seshagopalan),Saranga + Brindavanasaranga (Madurai Sundar), Ranjani + Kalyani (lalgudi Krishnan + Viji), and so forth.
The chatur raga pallavi " sankarabharananai azhaithodi vadi kalyani durbarukku" was popularized by Ariyakkudi.
S. Kalyanaraman sand a chatur raga pallavi in Krishna Gana Sabha (with MSG on the violin) with
the sahityam in 4 Ranjanis: ranjani, bhaktamanoranjani, rasikajanaranjani, varam arulvay sree ranjani (in Ranjani, Manoranjani, Janaranjani and Sree Ranjani). Are there any other examples? What about three raga, five raga, anf so forth ?
- From: Lakshman (@ ppp2651.on.bellglobal.com)
on: Fri Jul 21 14:14:51 EDT 2000
PPN:
It is not clear from Sambamurti's book whether Rattai pallavi involves two separate ragas or not. Of course as you mentioned 'Shankarabharananai' is the well known pallavi in 4 ragas. But I think these are called Ragamalika pallavis. I may have misled all of you when I said that Jayanti and her mother played a rattai pallavibut they played it in two ragas. Maybe it was really a ragamailka pallavi.
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