Topic started by Ravi Kiran (@ 164.164.70.54) on Mon Dec 4 00:39:56 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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The Hindu Folio on music (3rd Dec) carried some of the opinions of some of the leading young vocalists.
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Responses:
- Old responses
- From: l.gopalan (@ 202.9.171.223)
on: Sun Dec 17 02:07:11 EST 2000
in line with the views already exp[ressed by my response to ark is carnatic music neednot always be associated with any particu;ar religion but is entirly left to how a religion is making best use of it since music is a medium which is available to one and all-----gopalan
- From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com)
on: Tue Dec 19 14:22:20 EST 2000
Chandra,
IlaiyarAja is one of the most under-appreciated (inspite of isaignAni title) and misunderstood of MDs in Indian/Tamil film history. Ofcourse, he does popular music, which means they are rhythmic and the singing is not as 'heavy' as carnatic music. But I think he preserved the essence of our music (indianness) in all his songs. By todays singing and pronounication standards his songs are relatively 'classical'. He has brought ideas from the Western classical world to indian music. His music is full of contrapuntal melodies and many compositions are 'symphonic'. We should appreciate him for his desire to bring polyphonic sounds to indian music. He has used marches, choral and operatic singing in his song. He successfully interrupts the rhythmic flow of songs with full melody based music in preludes and interludes. He is one of the most original composers whereas todays music directors are desperately looking for 'grooves' in western POP world. (versus ethnic grooves, say in 'thEvar magan').
Recent examples are a march song with thavil in bharathi and a fantastic classical composition 'ethilum ingu' again in same movie.
BTW, I dont think the 'rAgam' is thrown in. CARNATIC MUSIC IS THE NATURAL WAY OF SINGING IN OUR LANGUAGE. This is what your own research proves isn't it ? So it happens to fall into a rAgam or probably it was used just like an 'off-the-shelf' library in software.
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 164.164.70.54)
on: Tue Dec 19 23:49:47 EST 2000
I think we are digressing here.
Please restrict your views on Ilayaraaja to another thread.
I think we have had a fruitful discussion here.
Thank you all.
- From: Ramji (@ 205.177.170.116)
on: Wed Dec 20 10:45:13 EST 2000
Ravi:
Thanks for starting this topic.
Admin:
Is there a way we could send this discussion to TMK ( thru Hindu or directly) and get his reaction?
- From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com)
on: Wed Dec 20 13:45:27 EST 2000
Ravi,
I appreciate your desire to keep this thread to the topic.
The digression was to show that carnatic music is not totally unrelated to popular music. That way it is relevant to TMKs points. If you look at things from bigger perspective they are all related. If you do not see any benefits in analysing the popular trend in the context of bhakti and carnatic music I will refrain from posts like this in the future.
- From: lakshminarayana gopalan (@ 202.9.171.63)
on: Wed Dec 20 20:47:31 EST 2000
i too feel that tmk should be nade aware of this discussion and he should also come out with his views therafter----gopalan
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 164.164.70.54)
on: Wed Dec 20 23:56:40 EST 2000
Re: sending the views expressed in this thread over to TMK for his comments, I think we can wait till January - right now TMK would be in a whirlwind of concerts and more concerts....
- From: ¦À.ºó¾¢Ã§º¸Ãý/Chandra (@ rr-165-122-108.atl.mediaone.net)
on: Fri Jan 5 16:37:08
With due apologies, I would like to quickly and briefly sustain the digression:
ark had said:
--
Secondly, regarding Ilayaraja and Rahman’s music, a person’s reasons for liking some music is his/her own – it does not have to
pass judgement of the others. As long as an artist’s music is enjoyed by millions even for a fleeting moment in time, that is an
achievement and *I* wont “dismiss” that.
---
Well to me that sounds like Freudianism which is opposed and nullified in toto by Tamil heritage.
- From: Puduhai Sreeram (@ 134.243.6.103)
on: Sat Jan 6 19:18:39 EST 2001
Chandra
That is an interesting statement there! Could you please elaborate on that?
Thanks
- From: ¦À.ºó¾¢Ã§º¸Ãý/Chandra (@ hide-110.state.me.us)
on: Wed Jan 10 15:43:16 EST 2001
Sreeram:
Sorry for the delay.
Quickly:
Freudianism asserts that everybody has at the bottom of their hearts is dark and nothing else.
So any good beahvior is only the result of a "complex" or a show.
It is pessimistic, dark, and justifies the lowest common denominator. No feeling of guilt since there is no fundamentally good thing expected since it is not possible.
Note that this is all because the Id has purely animal tendencies utterly carnal, selfish forces operating as undercurrent. So the Id is too lazy to suffer any pain voluntarily or consciously that is it is averse to perform any nOnpu (= bearing pain and suffering). Fruedianism leads to no fixed support which in turn leads to blankness, hopelessness,
Tamil heritage is the exact opposite of it.
It believes in one's mind having fundamentally good tendencies and in the reality of those tendencies eventually overpowering any evil tendencies however deep-seated the latter might be to start with. Tamil heritage does not deny sexuality and its power but has a way to acknowledge it, but channelize it and raise it to superhuman levels. That is why Tamil literature gave priority to human sexuality integrated with high standards of conduct.
kaRpu (not only the Arundhathi, Sita, KaNNaki kind of chastity but also truthfulness) is the complete embodiment of the nullification of Freudianism. It is associated with infinite patience which is nothing but introspection or yoga. It automatically means undying optimism.
For the feeling corresponding to it, Mulai landscape was associated with it and harikAmbodhi as the pAlaip paN.
It believes in one's own suffering eventually getting transformed into benefit for the beloved (individual or society).
This philosophy is the core of tolkAppiyam's third book "poruL atikAram" or the semantics of literature/life style which viewed in a way is guide for absolute standards for the contents of literature. Mo moral relativism like Freudianism. It indirectly says any lack of novelty is tolerable if having that is going to compromise ideals and thus the progress of the society.
Tamils also found ways of concretley implementing it through three means that help achieve it, the three means themselves destined to live forever:
the linguistic Tamil, musical Tamil (carnatic music) and kUththuth tamil(bharatha natyam)...the three remaining in an unbroken chain for more than 2500 years. A testimony to the Freudian-nullifying sacrifices by the society along the way.
See the eye-opening article at:
Note that Patanjali lived at Chidambaram/Madurai siva temples]
http://www.timesofindia.com/010200/01edit5.htm
[Thanks to Manivannan of California for posting it for public benefit]
- From: ark (@ ro05-24-29-233-19.ce.mediaone.net)
on: Fri Jan 12 12:00:57 EST 2001
Chandra,
Thanks for your reply. I must confess that I am very familiar with Freudism. But your analysis is quite interesting!!
I just want to highlight one statement in your email:
> It indirectly says any lack of novelty is
> tolerable if having that is going to compromise
> ideals and thus the progress of the society.
So is there an authority that decides if something is novel or not and whether something is "good" for society or not? Isnt that also "relative"? Anyway, do *all* of us have to agree to this "high pedestal"? Isnt there room for individual taste (actually tastes of *millions* here)?
Regards
ark
- From: aruLaracan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Fri Jan 12 17:17:44 EST 2001
ark,
:-))).
with your question we have come a full cycle to the question at hand. is bakthi an essential ingredient (high pedestal) of carnatic music? do all of us have to agree to this high pedestal? :-)))
- From: l.gopalan (@ 202.9.160.196)
on: Fri Jan 12 19:48:23 EST 2001
"bakthi" as i have said earlier, for any chosen thing is indeed essential for that thing-----gopalan
- From: ark (@ ro05-24-29-233-19.ce.mediaone.net)
on: Sat Jan 13 12:43:16 EST 2001
Did not see the typo until now
> I must confess that I am very familiar with Freudism
Should have been "I am *not* very familiar ..."!!!
aruLaracan ,
That dialogue with chandra was in the context of film music and not carnatic music (so probably off-topic). The complaint of Chandra was that film music has degraded over period of time (by moving away from carnatic or was more diluted (or polluted ? (:-)) I was pointing out that it is still enjoyed by millions and that must account to something (in their own musical domain - which was never true carnatic anyways)
Anyway returning to your question, is bakthi an essential ingredient? Different people here have approached it differently. If bakthi is treated as just "dedication" (to say the music itself and not necessarily the context) then some have argued that it is indeed essential.
But TMK's question is in reference to dedication to god/religion in particular which is the bakthi you find in the carnatic compositions. Is that necessary? IMHO, while it is not strictly necessary i.e. you could have a non-religious composition in some raga (not shades of it as in say film music, but in strict accordance to the raga) - will it be acknowledged as carnatic music? Would it be treated as something else?
My guess would be the latter. My theory is that a majority of classical music listeners (indian or western), like it for reasons other than music. They like it for its association with tradition, culture etc. So any time you attempt to change or break the mold, you receive criticism as it "violates" the "feel" the classical music gives to its listener.
Well, I dont know if that was clear. I had some trouble getting to put that in words!!
Regards
ark
- From: aruLaracan (@ vengu.umsl.edu)
on: Sun Jan 14 20:29:40 EST 2001
ark: :-). i have a few cassettes (vINai and violins) and i have no idea as to what the songs are about (not exactly, these are muththuswamy dhIkshithat kirthis and hence ... :-) ) - i have no clue as to the kriti itself. i have no problem enjoying the nuances and beauty of the songs; they give me immense pleasure. for all i care the songs could be about orgy (if you didn't like that word, rAsa lIlai :-) )! now my question should be obvious to you. why? why is kadavuL bakthi essential to carnatic music? this obsession with this singular emotion and the trinity has resulted in the degradation of instrumental music. what is the state of nAdhaswaram now-a-days? what is the state of kuzhal? vINai? ... ? most often i feel that there are two many useless strings in the vINai. probably this is true for other instruments too. i shudder to think of a day (probably in a couple of decades) when these instruments will be spoken of like yAzh. (fortunately, this yAzh is still in use in the western world!) the only way to revert this situation is to compose instrument specific music. i don't think any of these bakthimans can do that.
1.gopalan: my questioning this kadavuL bakthi comes from my bakthi for music.
- From: l.gopalan (@ 202.9.160.142)
on: Sun Jan 14 22:11:19 EST 2001
if some ones bakhi fr music is not kadavul based ,well it is up to him-but fr others using kadavul based bakthi in c-music it is also upto them-as of now kadavul based bakthi seems to be predominant as many find rapture ,tranquility and soilace in it--all these are inherent in the statements i have already made and are derivable from there----gopalan
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Mon Jan 15 11:41:20 EST 2001
>>Fruedianism leads to no fixed support which in turn leads to blankness, hopelessness, Tamil heritage is the exact opposite of it.
LIFE is the very opposite, unless you happen to be a manic depressive.
- From: ark (@ ro05-24-29-230-126.ce.mediaone.net)
on: Mon Jan 15 18:08:45 EST 2001
aruLaracan,
Those are good questions which I ask too. It is not *my* opinion that that religious context is a must for carnatic music. I was saying that it ias *perceived as a must* by most classical musical listeners.
Now this is just my opinion (perhaps even a guess). I think perhaps the reason for that above is that traditionally, that is how it has been and so that is how "the majority" would want it to continue. If somebody composes a non-religious composition (say on philsophy, or specific non-religious situations) or perhaps a composition on a non-hindy deity, it probably wont be treated as a carnatic composition (and sung in concerts, taught to disciples etc.). The only reason I can think of is a need to strictly adhere to tradition. I dont know *why* it is so - perhaps it is the way our culture has evolved. I know this is probably not a good answer but it is the only one I got! Note that I am not providing judgement or standing up for it.
Regards
ark
- From: Puduhai Sreeram (@ 134.243.93.24)
on: Tue Jan 16 14:50:12 EST 2001
Arularacan wrote:
>this obsession with this singular emotion and the trinity has resulted in the degradation of instrumental music.
What nonsense! It's non sequitur, at best!
Instrumental music has been enjoying great patronage from the music rasikas. In fact, the number of artists giving solo concerts have increased in the last few decades. vInai and kuzal are doing just fine, thank you very much!
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