Thavil

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Thavil Thavil

Topic started by Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on Wed Jul 17 19:42:02 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I wanted to start a topic on the thavil and collect whatever information we can about it.

Responses:

From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Wed Jul 17 19:47:07

It is widely known that mridangist's have adapted numerous things from thavil artists, and that thavil artists are highly respected by mridangists, but I wanted to find out what made thavil artists so respected. What was in their playing that made them so grand...

For the past few weeks, I have been extensively listening to thavil/nadaswaram recordings and have been stunned (to say the least) at the playing of these thavil artists. Their calculations are not simply dry math but are stunningly artistic, structured, and fluent.
From: pramodh (@ ac8465c0.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Jul 23 07:16:38

I quite agree but I sincerely pray that it doesnt become a dying art
From: pramodh (@ ac8465c0.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Jul 23 07:17:36

Do you think mandolin goes better with the thavil or the mridangam?
From: tester1 (@ ool-182d8366.dyn.optonline.net) on: Tue Jul 23 08:17:12

test
From: tester 2 (@ ool-182d8366.dyn.optonline.net) on: Tue Jul 23 08:18:16

test 2
From: test 3 (@ ool-182d8366.dyn.optonline.net) on: Tue Jul 23 11:13:51

test 3
From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Tue Jul 23 12:51:37

Mandolin is a soft instrument and hence mridangam does suit it better. Although, Mandolin Shrinivas did play with Shanmughashundaram Pillai when he was younger. However, I think saxophone does sound much better with Thavil, as it is a very loud instrument.

People are not encouragin thavil and nadaswarama like you said. In the olden days, thavil/nadaswaram was limited to temple processions and possibly a few concerts. This again quite possibly could have been due to the caste problem.

Currently, the use of nadaswaram on the concert platfrom is near nil. During the Music Season, one hardly finds even a single nadaswaram apart from the inaugaration days of the sabhas.

Luckily, people like Palanivel have joined the Zakir, Vikku "band" and are touring and exposing many new audiences to the wonderful art of thavil. Perhaps the thavil and nadaswaram will flourish in other countries, as is carnatic music in general!
From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Tue Jul 23 12:52:38

Mridangam. Definately. I'm not actually keen on thavil with anything other than the really strong instruments like nadaswaram and latterly saxaphone.
From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Tue Jul 23 12:54:22

Testing?

surely the only reason to test is wanting to post a message. So why not just post the message. Or go create your own thread to post garbage to.
From: pramodh (@ ac98d6f3.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Jul 23 15:10:48

I think it depends on how he actually plays the mandolin(Srinivas). His previous recordings were robust and at times flat and seemed to suit the thavil as long as it (thavil) was played gently as Valangaiman successfully did. My own personal view is that Srinivas and other Mandolin players should try and use Thavil on atleast 25% of their concerts. It will not only add variety but also although indirectly make Thavil more popular(hopefully).

Sadly but truly nadhaswaram is an art that is not as it used to be( I hate to use the term dying). It is particularly sad because without doubt this intrument brought out the depth and charm of Carnatic music like no other instrument. So if Thavil needs to flourish it has to seek the help of other instruments like Sax, Clarionet etc. I would go for mandolin as well.
From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Tue Jul 23 15:39:57

When Kunnakudi was more active several decades ago, he used to perform with thavil, as well. I have not personally heard any such recording, but it must have been fairly euphonious as thavil was Kunnakudi's stock accompaniment.

The sad thing is that the thavil and nadaswaram are so advanced in their field. I am not in the poisiton to make statements about nadaswaram, but thavil patterns are highly complex and deserve attention.

The morsing and other uppakkavadyams are also fading away. Frankly, I have not heard any stunning morsing performances, but have heard masterly performances by Harishankar, Nagarajan Sir, Vaikkom, etc.
From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Tue Jul 23 15:41:37

The main reason why uppa pakkavadayams are fading is because the vocalists do not want to split the money they are getting with more people than "necessary." Importantly, I must add that they cannot be blamed, as they are also trying to make a living.

Still, a very sad state of affairs.
From: pramodh (@ ac98d6f3.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Jul 23 16:30:12

But with Thavil its different. Its not an upa pakkavadhyam and is still a main pakkavadhyam and hopefully preserves its place.

But could we think of any ideas to see how these upapakkavadhyams can be restored of their lost pride?
From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 24 05:24:27

It really is sad that this comes down to economics. Ultimately I suppose it depends on how much we, the audience, are prepared to pay for our seats. The vast majority of carnatic concerts I attend are in small venues charging, I guess, around half the price of main-stream venues. We've discussed the North-South musical divide before elsewhere, but, ultimately its the audience that pays ---or not.
As a would-be morsing player I am particularly interested in seeing the instrument played but seldom get to. On the other hand it seems to be often included in recorded music, possibly even more so than kanjira.
From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 24 05:26:00

Of course I'd be happy to see more thavil: it is a rarity in UK.
From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 24 12:26:43

I know several people here who would like to learn, but reckon that it would be just too noisy for the neighbours.
From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 24 12:30:16

Encouraging other instruments? One idea is to ask the presenters who will smile and say, "of course," and then change nothing . Seriously, I hate to sound like an English Tory, talking about market forces and all that, but as audience we *are* customers. There will be no more concerts without us.
From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Fri Jul 26 21:09:16

To propogate classical music throughout the world (not only carnatic but all classical music), the younger generation must be exposed to it, from an early age. In America, music class has been required for the last 100 years; children are exposed to western classical music, therefore, from a young age. In India, this is what's lacking. Though some musicians have stated this before, no one with supreme power, as far as govermental policies in concerned, has.
From: mani (@ cache-rl04.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jul 27 00:46:36

Thavil, called "Thakil" in Kerala. This instrument definitely has a purpose in India for temples, and marriages.
Thakil and Nadaswaram are definitely a pair used in south India, especially in TN. (Does Andhra use Thakil?)
TN has varied the Thakil's sound by using one stick and fingers, and for many dances and processions, two sticks.
Karnataka has very much used Thakil and Nadaswaram as processional instruments, but playing only in the traditional way.
In Kerala, it is common to hear the Nadaswaram and Thakil in the temples, I remember hearing it couple miles away from a local temple.
Also, Thakil in Kerala is used for processions including Kavadiattam, Karagattam, Poikaal Kuthirai, etc, and it is called Thakilmelam.
Thakilmelam involves about 4 thakils (depending on the size of the procession), few nadaswarams, and an urumi to give some bass along with each beat. The nadaswarams in the procession sounds very different for it is played very fastly, and sounds high pitched; the thakils in Thakilmelam are played with two sticks, rather than one hand and one stick.
From: pramodh (@ acaefb2e.ipt.aol.com) on: Sat Jul 27 09:27:59

I dont want to show any partiality here, but I do notice that thavil players from Tamil Nadu play more softly than the ones from Kerala and do have more commitment to the melody. Sometimes especially in temples and marriage halls you do find the poor nadhaswaram vidwan struggling to match the thavil volume for volume and it ends up in a noisy state.
From: mani (@ cache-dr10.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jul 27 12:45:41

Pramodh,

>>I dont want to show any partiality here, but I do notice that thavil players from Tamil Nadu play more softly than the ones from Kerala and do have more commitment to the melody.<<

You mean the playing in the traditional way? If so, that is true because the thakil and nadaswaram sounds very harsh in Kerala temples, although it sounds beautiful when it is played with two sticks accompanying something like kavadiattam.
From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Mon Jul 29 06:52:28

But I have been lead to understand that there is a solid tradition of Nadaswaram+Thavil as concert instruments as well as ceremonial/processional. It is this aspect that Rohan is trying to promote.
As an aside, it seems to me that whatever the world can do in percussion Kerala can do better, with more interesting instruments, faster, for many more hours etc etc. So why do Westerners consider that Africa is the home of rhythm?!
From: pramodh (@ ac8cd219.ipt.aol.com) on: Mon Jul 29 14:06:55

Its ages since I have heard a quality Nadhaswaram concert on stage( apart from marriages and temple ceremonies) in Kerala. So I really cannot comment on that. You are right regarding the solid tradition but still it seems to me as though its a fading art especially the nadhaswaram.

Reagrding the Kerala comment, it is just a personal observation though I didnt want to make any comparisions between states. It could even be due to the fact that the quality Nadhaswaram players apart from Jayashanker and maybe Sasikumar all the rest have been from outside Kerala and particularly TamilNad. So maybe the Thavil players have followed that pattern.

And in Kerala, apart from Brahmin community you dont find Nadaswaram as an indispensable element in marriages in other Hindu communities. Even when you find them in Non Brahmin marriages you have a feeling that you could probably have done without it! I think its slightly different in Tamil Nad.
From: Mani (@ cache-mtc-ah06.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Jul 29 15:41:11

Whatever it is, Nadaswaram and Thavil has always been part of the Kerala identity.

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