Topic started by Isai Rasigai (@ bstnma1-ar1-190-056.dsl.gtei.net) on Wed Apr 4 13:42:09 .
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Hello Everybody
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Responses:
- From: Lakshman (@ hse-kitchener-ppp78776.sympatico.ca)
on: Wed Apr 4 14:30:41
Rasikaranjani is a janya of mela 16 (cakravaka) and the notes are: SRGPS--SDPGRS whereas Bibhasu (or Revagupti) belongs to mela 15 and the scale is SRGPDS--SDPGRS. They are indeed very close.
- From: IR (@ bstnma1-ar1-190-056.dsl.gtei.net)
on: Wed Apr 4 17:13:36
Hello Lakshman :-) Good to hear from you again...
Revgupthi would take dha1 - but I am wondering if you have any raga in your exhaustive list that is a janya of Chakravaham with the same notes...
The raga of the song I am talking about is definitely Malayamaarudham sans Nishadham... but does it have a name if it is not bibhasu? Thanks in advance...
- From: Gopal (@ cx188881-b.mnchs1.ct.home.com)
on: Wed Apr 4 18:20:45
IR / Lakshman
Which song is this in Bharathy?
Also on a tangential note--is Revagupti any way close to Bhoopalam?--I heard a song in Revagupti and it sounded more like bhoopalam to me.
Thanks.
- From: Lakshman (@ hse-kitchener-ppp78675.sympatico.ca)
on: Wed Apr 4 18:21:33
isai rasigai:
Here are the ragas under mela 15 that have the scale S R G P D S--S D P G R S.
bhUpALA, bibhAsu, gauLarEvagupti, jagasu, kalyANakEsari, rauti and rEvagupti. If you are interested in the authors of these I can post them.
- From: Lakshman (@ hse-kitchener-ppp78675.sympatico.ca)
on: Wed Apr 4 18:25:46
Gopal:
Bhupalam and revagupti are the same as far as I can find out.
- From: IR (@ bstnma1-ar1-190-056.dsl.gtei.net)
on: Wed Apr 4 19:11:26
Lakshman: Bhoopalam is a janya of Thodi (ga2) (Sadhaachaleshwaram)
RevGupthi is a Janya of MMG (Ga3) (Sharavana Bhava)
Lakshman, Thanks for the list of MMG janyas. I would like to get info on janyas of Chakravaham too with the same scale but dha2. The raga I mentioned seems to be a janya of 16 (dha2).. Thanks for youe help, as always...
Gopal, the song would be "Edhilum Avan Iruppaano". I am not sure about the lyrics of the song OS Arun sang, but it is the same raga. (when Bharathi goes to Kaashi, you would hear this song on Lord Shiva)
- From: Lakshman (@ kitchener-ppp111674.sympatico.ca)
on: Wed Apr 4 19:54:53
Isai rasigai: I am sorry I should have explained further about Bhupala in my last posting. The problem with some of the ragas is that there are multiple scales. Bhupala is put under three different melas. Here is the list.
mela 8 SRGPDS--SDPGRS (Nadamuni Panditar) and SRGPDS--SNDPGRS (R.R.Keshavamurti). Under mela 9 the scale is also SRGPDS--SDPGRS (Subbarama Dikshitar). P.Sambamurti places it in mela 15 with SRGPDS--SDPGRS scale.
Interstingly there are no ragas in mela 16 with the notes SRGPDS--SDPGRS. The closest one is Shri ekadanta with SRGPDS--SNDMGRS.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ 65-pool1.ras11.vahen.agisdial.net)
on: Wed Apr 4 20:35:19
Hello IR, good to hear from you.
I feel that since the movies are not the place for scholarship, the playback singer is more inclined to skip the descending dhaivata. Therefore the tune is likely that of the raaga Vibhaas, as OSArun suggests.
It is also possible that to synchronize the music with the hero-heroines contrived gasping during any number of cinematic physical activities, the music in movies also does not have to obey the 'nyaasa' etc. swara rules that govern the raagas.
An alternative to all this is that it is a new raaga 'Vibhaas Ranjani' with bhashaanga features but IR would have spotted that.
- From: IR (@ bstnma1-ar1-189-171.dsl.gtei.net)
on: Thu Apr 5 09:43:04
Thanks for all that info Lakshman... Having said that P Sambamoorthy places Bhoopalam under mela 15, I am now curious to see what he has to say about RevGupthi... :-)
Nado... Nice to see you again... I did discount that factor and did not bring this question up for a long time... But, the raga is sooooo beautiful and when Valaj and Malayamarudham are so popular, I was wondering about this raaga and hence decided to ask the experts here :-)
I do agree that film music and songs do not/do not have to necessarily follow the grammar of a raga strictly.. but this song seems to one of those few exceptions.... :-)
Lakshman, thanks for your quick responses :-) The info you give is very helpful...
- From: Nadopasaka (@ 8-pool3.ras11.vahen.agisdial.net)
on: Thu Apr 5 21:40:09
IR, good to see all the smiles again :-)) Also, that should be 'ask the expert ( singular ) as in Lakshman !'. Sambamurty claimed a 72x72 mela scheme, to one-up Venkitamakhi so his classification of Bhupalam-Revegupti is likely to be bizarre as well.
- From: IR (@ 38.220.167.231)
on: Fri Apr 6 07:15:53
:-) Nado - I agree - these people do a better job of confusing than clarifying :-)
- From: S (@ 203.94.234.77)
on: Sat Apr 7 13:40:07
IR, Lakshman and Nado:
There is a hindustani rAga called jaiT/jETh that answers IR's requirement of s r1 g3 p d2 s'. This jETh is not to be confused with jETh kalyAN (sometimes shortened carelessly as jETh), a vakra version of mohanam. U can sometime hear Chowrasia fluting this scale.
Also IR, I think the reference made was not to bibhasu of the carnatic system (while on this, can Lakshman pl check up if bibhasu of carnatic, in addn to its being a synonym of revagupti, also has a version srgpds-sdpmrs under mela 15) , but to bibhas/vibhas of the *hindustani* system. But again, ....
bibhAs (hindustani) has multiple versions -one under bhairav thAT ('our' :-) mAyAmALavagowLa mELa), one under pUrvi thAT (kAmavardhani - 51), one under mArwa thAT (gamanashrama - 53). Since the former two have d1, they do not meet IR's requirement. It is only the mArwa version that has d2 - but often this is not a pure auDava-auDava rAga. In fact, it is only the bhairav version of bibhAs which is a pure pentatonic version. So I feel jETh is a better choice.
For finding the name of the associated carnatic scale, pbly Sri Lakshman can look under all the candidate parent melas (16,17,52,53) for srgpds-sdpgrs.
PS: By popular present connotation, bhUpALam is under 8 and rEvagupti is under 15.
- From: S (@ 203.94.234.77)
on: Sat Apr 7 13:40:16
IR, Lakshman and Nado:
There is a hindustani rAga called jaiT/jETh that answers IR's requirement of s r1 g3 p d2 s'. This jETh is not to be confused with jETh kalyAN (sometimes shortened carelessly as jETh), a vakra version of mohanam. U can sometime hear Chowrasia fluting this scale.
Also IR, I think the reference made was not to bibhasu of the carnatic system (while on this, can Lakshman pl check up if bibhasu of carnatic, in addn to its being a synonym of revagupti, also has a version srgpds-sdpmrs under mela 15) , but to bibhas/vibhas of the *hindustani* system. But again, ....
bibhAs (hindustani) has multiple versions -one under bhairav thAT ('our' :-) mAyAmALavagowLa mELa), one under pUrvi thAT (kAmavardhani - 51), one under mArwa thAT (gamanashrama - 53). Since the former two have d1, they do not meet IR's requirement. It is only the mArwa version that has d2 - but often this is not a pure auDava-auDava rAga. In fact, it is only the bhairav version of bibhAs which is a pure pentatonic version. So I feel jETh is a better choice.
For finding the name of the associated carnatic scale, pbly Sri Lakshman can look under all the candidate parent melas (16,17,52,53) for srgpds-sdpgrs.
PS: By popular present connotation, bhUpALam is under 8 and rEvagupti is under 15.
- From: kartik (@ webcache.bng.vsnl.net.in)
on: Sun Apr 8 06:28:23
Dear all>>
In one of my earlier threads I devoted to Rasika Ranjini, I have a made a reference to "Edilum" which is in RR.RR is jait in Hindutani rdition.Periya Sami Thooran has a composition in RR which i heard on madras AIR.Bhupalam and revagupti differ on the Gandharam.I dont think there is a marwa that.Marwa is hamsanandi with nil presence of Shadjamam.Vishesha prayogas like DNRNDM/MDMGRNR employing G as vadi and D as samvadhi makes it totally different from Gamanasrama which is Puriya Kalyan with Yeman in uttarang and puriya in poorvang.Chaurasia has played Jait extensively in concerts and in albums.
Rgds,
Karthik
- From: S (@ 203.94.234.40)
on: Sun Apr 8 08:02:06
Dear Karthik,
The 10 thATs of Hindustani include mArwa as a thAT. The 10 are yaman(kalyani), bilaval(sankarabharanam), khamaj(harikambhoji), bhairav(mayamalavagowla), poorvi(kamavardhani), marwa(gamanashrama), kafi(kharaharapriya), asavari(natabhairavi), todi(subhapantuvarali), bhairavi(hanumatodi scalically and academically, sindhubhairavi actually :-). The names in brackets indicate the carnatic equivalent melas.
Yes, there is a marwa which is born out of marwa thAT that excludes the pa and sounds like hamsanandi - I have not heard sa totally excluded as u say. Sohoni is closely allied, but emphasises uttarAnga.
PS:
1. I also cross checked mArwa as a thAT in Subba Rao's raganidhi published by Music Academy, as well as a book published in Pune. Subba Rao's book also mentions marwa raga as a shadava shadava raga, with pa excluded, as a raga under marwa thaat. I also remember marwa's being mentioned as a thaat in some interactions I had with Hindusani musicians, while trying to explain the scales of Carnatic music to them. I do not know if there is any other tradition in hindustani music thAT classification that excludes marwa as a thaaT.
2. Do continue the nice posts of yours.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ 77-pool1.ras11.vahen.agisdial.net)
on: Sun Apr 8 08:07:08
RaamaNavami greetings to all !! Along with the swaras, raaga may also be strictly defined by the which of these are nyaasa, amsa etc. swaras ( what IR calls grammar ) . Do these coincide for the pairs Bibhaasu - Revagupti or RasikaRanjani-Jait or Vibhaas-Bibhas?
- From: kartik (@ 203.200.1.119)
on: Sun Apr 8 12:30:09
S>>
Thanks for your response.I shall come back to Marwa thaat shortly as I must study some other books to give you authentic info.As of now,I agree with what you say.I have heard "Komal Rishabh Asaveri" which is our good old todi isnt?Asaveri is Natabhairavi and so KRA should evaluate to todi.(hanuma).Maraw is Hamsanandi.One point of interest is our own Hamsanandi in grammar books has occassional phrases of Panchama in it.But when Muthaiah Bhagavathar adopted to our CM, he made it PanchamaVarjita raga!
- From: IR (@ bstnma1-ar1-190-040.dsl.gtei.net)
on: Mon Apr 9 07:19:52
S and Kartik... thanks for sharing this info :-) really appreciate your time and efforts :)
- From: kartik (@ ppp-181-46.bng.vsnl.net.in)
on: Mon Apr 9 22:00:50
What is the scale for Varnaroopini?Is it same as Jait.Similarly,i had a discussion with Lakshamn on the North Indian Raga Madhukauns(which is of course totally different by i just remembered it now!);Saukyadhayini is perhaps Madhukauns.Could Lakshman clarify this?
Rgds,
Kartik
- From: Lakshman (@ kitchener-ppp111753.sympatico.ca)
on: Tue Apr 10 08:44:44
Varnarupini has SRGPDS--SDPGRS as its notes but is placed in two different melas (17 & 18) by Nadamuni Panditar. Jait has five different varieties, all of them in Marva thaat (Gamanashrama, #53). One of them uses SRGPDPS--SDPGRS as the scale. Since ma is not used in this raga, it could also be in mela 17.
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