Topic started by Lakshman on Mon Sep 27 19:02:44 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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I am fairly new to the internet and have been following different threads related to Karnatak music. But I am appalled at the way the words of kritis and names of ragas are "murdered" by some contributors. This is meant to be a critisism of anyone. The tamil language, with its inadequate number of characters, is to be blamed for this! A single alphabet can represent as many as four sounds. Songs like BaNTurIti are referred to as PaNDurIdhi. Even prominent artists are not immune. I have heard one well known personality singing Jiva Jiva enarada (in Kamavardhini by Tyagaraja) and another intoning Magaa ganaptim manasa smarami(in Nata by Dikshitar). Even Dikshitar's name is spelled as Dikshidar!. Some have problems distingushing between nada and natha. These are just a few examples. What do you people out there - rasikas, music teachers, artists and others think about this? Let's have some discussion on this. |
Responses:
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- From: s (@ netcache2.mot.com)
on: Mon Mar 6 06:56:30 EST 2000
I notice that vallabhA nAyakasya has been pointed out as incorrect. It is NOT - it is correct. vallabhA is in feminine gender and Ganesha is hence vallabhAnAyakasya. Also refer the phrase vallabhAmbAramaNam in Ekadantam ( bilahari, MD ).
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aippp45.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Mar 6 09:48:45 EST 2000
I think vallabha + ambA gives vallabhAmbA in the Bilahari due to the beginning and ending 'a' sounds. Not sure about gender in vallabha/A. Is that vallabhAm ?
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.55.12)
on: Mon Mar 6 09:51:25 EST 2000
s: Both vallabha and vallabhA may be correct terms but the discussion there was whether MD wrote it as vallabha or vallabhA. I don't have the book handy. Could someone verify that and inform us?
Thanks
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp1.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Mar 6 10:24:20 EST 2000
Based on the synflux site, www.synflux.com.au, which is careful about a, A sounds for MD krities, it is vallabha. However that site has a problem with Bhashaanga definition.
- From: Narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Mon Mar 6 10:25:07 EST 2000
According to Sri T K Govinda Rao's book it is "vallabhA".
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp1.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Mar 6 10:46:23 EST 2000
Does TKG's book give any meanings or refer to SSP of Subb. D. ? nAyak sometimes refers to prince , not necessarily consort. Many ganapati temples seem to have this vallabha name.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp17.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Mar 6 11:29:02 EST 2000
Just for reference,
The Nookala C.S. rendition of Vallabha on the bharat.com web site completely eschews the A sound in favor of the lower case vallabha, in all sangatis.
- From: Lakshman (@ hse-kit-ppp38742.sympatico.ca)
on: Mon Mar 6 12:06:01 EST 2000
Both in Kriti Mani Malai and Dikshita Kirtanamala the text is vallabhA nAyaksya.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aippp39.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Mar 6 12:49:19 EST 2000
Lakshman
Can you check on the MD ataana, Vamangastitaya VallabhAya, and give, if possible the entire pallavi line.
Does SSP of Subb. D ( or other texts ) list any meanings ?
Thanks
- From: Lakshman (@ ppp7776.on.bellglobal.com)
on: Mon Mar 6 13:42:44 EST 2000
Nadopasaka & others:
The pallavi lines of the two songs are:
vallabhAnAyakasya bhaktO bhavAmi vAncitArtha dAyakasya vara mUSika vAhanasya (vallabhA)
vAmAnkasthitayaA vallabhayAshliSTam vAraNa vadanam dEvam vandEham (vAmAnka)
The tamil meanings are:
1. kOriya varangaLai koDuppavarum uttamamAna mUSika vAhanattai uDaiyavarum, pAshan, ankusham mudaliya AyudangaLaiyum, mallikai, jAdi, shaNpakam, navaratnam ivaigaLAna mAlaigaLai tarippavarum, vaLLiyin vivAhattirkku kAraNamAga varum, kALI, sarasvati, lakSmI ivargaLAl vaNangappaTTavarum vallabhA dEvikku nAyakarum guruguhanAl pUjikkappattavarumAna (vinAyakarukku) nAn bhaktan AginEn.
2. iDadu bhAgattil vITrirukkum vallabhA nAyakiyuDan kUDiyavarum athika uyaramillAdavarum, villai tarittavarum aganra kAdugaLai uDaiyavarum, parama shivanuDaiya pudalvarum, aSThAnga yOga mahimaiyinAl aStha siddhigaLaiyum peTra vasiStar mudaliya munivargaLAl sEvikkappaTTavarum, shrSti mudalivaTrai ALbavarum tanakkOr nigar kAraNamillAdavarum, duStargaLai venru iStargaLai kAppavarum, iStha kAmyArthatangaLai tarubavarum, sAdhukkkaLim manattil lIlai sheibavarum guruguhaniDam anbuDaiyavarummAna gajamukha kaDavuLai nAn vaNangugirEn.
Hope you people can read this.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp8.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Mar 6 14:03:22 EST 2000
vAmAnkasthitayaA vallabhayAshliSTam vAraNa vadanam dEvam vandEham (vAmAnka)
Lakshman
Is that a lower case 'a' on the vallabha ?
I can't decipher the Temple which MD was referring to from the Tamil text for the Begada kriti ? Is it in varangal ??
Anyway it appears to me that Vallabha/A is not feminine. It refers to a male e.g. Govind Vallabh Pant or Shree Vallabha ( a temple in Kerala ) .
There is also a male Vedanta commentator Vallabhaa among the likes of Shankara, Ramanuja.
Therefore the MD usage of a/A sound is still not clear to me based on listening to different artistes, some who use exclusively 'a', others use combinations of 'a' and 'A'. Typically MD is very scrupulous about choice of words.
- From: Lakshman (@ hse-kitchener-ppp78630.sympatico.ca)
on: Mon Mar 6 14:27:20 EST 2000
Nadopasaka:
It is a lower case a in the Athana kriti.
In both the songs the wording is vallabhA nAyaki
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp41.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Mar 6 15:10:50 EST 2000
Lakshman
It is not clear whether the words 'vallabha nayaki' appear in the ataana MD kriti.
Does the temple that MD visited on this occasion have some reference to a consort of Ganesa ? The Tamil translation suggests this is a 'VallabhA devikku'. Is this translation from SSP of Subb. D ? Are there other non-MD references to such a 'devi' ?
p.s Valli (Valli vivaaha on the kriti ) is reportedly the spouse of Skanda (Ganesa's brother ) , cant say whether this has anything to do with Vallabha/A or Ganesa
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp14.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Mar 6 18:49:34 EST 2000
Further reference
GNB's composition in Hamsadhwani Vara Vallabha Ramana sung by Trichur V. Ramachandran ( on the bharat.com site ) also uses the lower case 'a' sound i.e. vallabha ramanah.
- From: s (@ netcache1.mot.com)
on: Tue Mar 7 07:05:47 EST 2000
!!
Shall try and reply to some points :
1. Regarding the 'a' in vallabhayA in vAmAnkasthitayA...., it is because of the vibhakti that the word is in - just as the word kamalAmb(ik)A becomes kamalAmkikayA in s'rI kamalAmbikayA kaTAkShitOham ( sankarAbharaNa navAv... ) BTW, pls do not confuse this with the long A in s'rI kamalAmbAyAh param nahi rE ( bhairavi ) - this is in another vibhakti.
2. vallabha is masculine and vallabhA is feminine - existence of the word in one gender surely does not preclude the other - example kRshNa is masculine and kRshNA is feminine.
s'ankara, rAmAnuja, vallabha ( masculine ), all have short 'a' endings, which invariably metamorphise into long 'A' when read out from english spellings.
3. Rgd mythology etc, beliefs vary. In the south, ( generally ) gaNEs'a is believed to be a bachelor, while subrahmaNya/kArtikEya is associated with vallI, dEvasEnA etc. In some places in the north, the reverse belief is held - aside : I have heard that in a few temples in the north where subrahmaNya is worshipped as a bachelor, ladies r not even allowed inside. Anyway, ganesa is associated with consorts such as buddhI ( eg buddhidevivaram in mohanakalyani kriti of muthiah bhagavatar among other egs ), riddhi, siddhi etc, apart from vallabhA. And yes, I believe there are non-MD references to vallabhA.
3. The root of nAyaka is nI ( nay ) meaning `to lead' - hence nAyaka can mean leader, consort and many related things ...
4. Please do not cite pronunciations in recordings as references, for obvious reasons !
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aeppp47.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Mar 7 10:31:52 EST 2000
s. try this on for size
( note Lalgudi is pretty well known for his attention to Sahityam )
Lalgudi Jayaraman has a varnam in Mohanakalyani 'vallabha nayaka'. (lower case )
I have heard Sudha R. also ( i have a tape ) do the lower case 'a' GNB vallabha ramana which is also a Ganapati kriti.
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.55.12)
on: Tue Mar 7 12:36:43 EST 2000
Most of the krithis that MD composed on vinAyaka is on the 16 ganapathis in and around the tiruvArUr temple. They are collectively called as Shodasa Ganapathi krithis. I'm not sure if "vallabha nAyakasya" is one among them. Anyway, in the south, ganapathi is considered a male and a bachelor. If indeed vallabha is masculine then that seems more appropriate. Indeed Sudha sings GNB's composition as vara vallabha ramanA.
My 2 cents
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp25.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Mar 7 14:04:32 EST 2000
s, Sree, Lakshman
I think 'vallabha' simply means beloved and is napumsaka, no gender. vallabha nAyaka in that sense is simply 'beloved leader'. There are sufficient ganesa pointers later in the MD kriti. (I checked with some Ganapati temples as well)
The idea of Ganesa first as vallabha, then vallabhA as feminine of vallabha, then Ganesa as nAyaka of this vallabhA, sounds farfetched even for some one like MD who revelled in such things. The reference to a vallabhA devikku (see Lakshman's post)is odd.
- From: s (@ netcache2.mot.com)
on: Tue Mar 7 21:46:05 EST 2000
Lalgudi's tamil varnam goes vallabhai nAyaka vandanam etc. vallabhai ( as in seethai/sItai ) .... Just as sItA ( sanskrit ) becomes sItai, so also vallabhA becomes vallabhai. More later.
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.55.12)
on: Wed Mar 8 09:22:23 EST 2000
Nadopasaka, s:
>I think 'vallabha' simply means beloved
I'm not sure if this correct. In abhirAmi andhAdhi, one of them starts like this
vallabam onRaRiyEn siRiyEn.....
From this it seems to me that vallabam refers to "knowledge". Perhaps vallabha nAyaka is synonymous with being omniscient?
- From: Vasu (@ s03.austin.ibm.com)
on: Wed Mar 8 11:55:14 EST 2000
one of the online Skrt dictionaries (I dont have the Apte dict. with me right now) says the following about vallabha:
mf(%{A})n. (Un2. iii , 125) beloved above all , desired , dear to (gen. loc. , or comp.) MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; dearer than (abl.) Pan5cat. iv , 28 ; supreme , superintending L. ; a favourite , friend , lover , husband Ka1v. Katha1s. &c. ; a cowherd L. (prob. w.r. for %{ballava}) ; a horse (esp. one with good marks or a favourite horse) L. ; a kind of Agallochum Gal. ; N. of a son of Bala1ka7s3va MBh. ; of the founder of a Vaishn2ava sect = %{vallabhA7cArya} q.v.) ; of a grammarian and various other writers and teachers (also with %{gaNaka} and %{nyAyA7cArya}) Cat. ; (%{A}) f. a beloved female , wife , mistress R. Ka1lid. ; N. of two plants (= %{ativiSa} and %{priyaGgu}) L. ; (%{I}) f. N. of a city in Gujara1t (the capital of a line of kings).
Looks like all three genders can be applied (m,n,f).
Vallabha ganapati may not be a temple in/around tiruvarur. I remember reading an article in sangeetham.com by a member of Gurughanjali association that MD used to worship a "Vallabha ganapati" idol and he mentioned that he was lucky to have seen it (among other things used by MD like Veena etc). Probably this song is in praise of him.
The dictionary is at:
http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/mwd_search.html
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.55.12)
on: Wed Mar 8 12:03:31 EST 2000
May be MD heard about vallabha ganapathi when he was learning music in North India.
BTW, does anyone have a list of all the 16 krithis that constitue shodasa ganapathi krithis of MD?
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