Topic started by Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg) on Fri May 30 07:45:11 .
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http://www.vallalar.org/realaudio/Second%20Thirumurai/Chapter-0100/Second%20Thirumurai%20Chapter-100-Audio%20Index.htm
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Responses:
- From: Lakshman (@ 64.187.33.170)
on: Fri May 30 09:17:42 EDT 2003
The raga is sindhubhairavi.
Also please tell me how to access the complete list of the songs available at this site. Thanks.
- From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Fri May 30 09:25:56 EDT 2003
Thank you Lakshman.
the home page is:
http://www.vallalar.org
go to the 'Thiruarutpa audio' section and start clicking away.
- From: Uio (@ ac8b1e0d.ipt.aol.com)
on: Mon Jun 2 02:55:53 EDT 2003
Idiappam, howcome you like the Sanskritist's raga - Sindhubhairavi. Should you not accuse it of beastiality......... >-)
- From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Mon Jun 2 04:37:22 EDT 2003
Sanskritist did not have no Ragaas. They just gave a few of them in Sanskrit sounding names. That's all!
The first book of musicology in Sanskrit was Sarangadeva's in 1240. The Raaga's got sanskrit names this. Most names were changed over and over again by other Sanskritists like Vengatamaki.
Description of Raagas and their derivations were written in Tamil books as early as 2nd Century AD - Ilago's Silapathigaram. Tamils have been writing poetry and music for more than 2500 years. Sanskritist knew of them just as late as 1200 AD.
Raagas do not need names. They were given long, mysterious names by the Sanskritists to bewilder the beginner in music.
Uio, Thank you for that question. If you want I would elaborate on the History of Indian Music!
- From: Karuvayan (@ law-b6.law.utexas.edu)
on: Tue Jun 3 16:48:31 EDT 2003
//Sanskritist did not have no Ragaas. //
Not true. Even great Tamizh composers like Muthutandavar and Subrahmanya Bharati trace the origins of classical rAgAs to the swaRas and anudattA's of the Sama Vedam. A Synthesis between SillapadikAram and the Indo-Aryan systems of music occured starting from 100 BCE or later. This was a healthy synthesis.
Remember, there was no presence of 'Kavyam' in Sanskrit. This genre was a unique contribution of Tamizh to Sanskrit, just as there has been contributions of Sanskrit to Tamizh. In many ways, a 'CROSS FERTILIZATION' occured.
Give you an example, there was sanskrit much before pAnini - the grammarian. He merely codified it for posterity. This is the same case with Venkatamakhi.
http://www.carnaticmusic.esmartmusic.com/primer/melakartas.htm
- From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Tue Jun 3 20:10:53 EDT 2003
Karuvaayan said:
Even great Tamizh composers like Muthutandavar and Subrahmanya Bharati trace the origins of classical rAgAs to the swaRas and anudattA's of the Sama Vedam//
Karuvaayan, my boy, please don't lie. I told you many time to go and read the vedas. Muthuthandavar and Subrahmanya Bharati care nothing for the Vedas and the 'music' that you say was in them.
What swaras were mentioned in the Sama Vedam? There was none! A later upanishads of the Sama vedam mentions that Sama veda should be sung and prescribes 3 notes - not specific which - one high, one middle, and one low notes. That's all about music of the vedas. ONLY 3 notes. So don't try to fool everyone with your 'all in it' vedic crap. Read the Sama Veda!
Even earlier than the Veda, Chinese music had 5 notes (pentatonic), that most of their music is set to Mohanam. So don't bloat.
Hear classical Chinese music at:
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/multimedia/chinese-music/html/traditional.html
Perhaps you have to understand that the Sanskritists are the ones who went around trying to put down the native music(s) of India - shouting that every note the voice came from their Vedas - that's a blatant lie!
Karuvaayan, please read the Sama Veda! And tell us what is said in there about music!
- From: Karuvayan (@ law-b8.law.utexas.edu)
on: Tue Jun 3 21:05:52 EDT 2003
//Muthuthandavar and Subrahmanya Bharati care nothing for the Vedas and the 'music' that you say was in them//
My dear Idimuttal. Go read the Tamizh version of Bhagavad Gitai written by Subrahmanya Bharati.
And, being atheistic why are you so interested in the bhajans of Vallalar?
//What swaras were mentioned in the Sama Vedam? There was none! A later upanishads of the Sama vedam mentions that Sama veda should be sung and prescribes 3 notes - not specific which - one high, one middle, and one low notes. That's all about music of the vedas. ONLY 3 notes. So don't try to fool everyone with your 'all in it' vedic crap. Read the Sama Veda! //
That is bullshi*t. There are atleast 7 swarAs, anudattas, visargAs mentioned in the Sama Veda. Even a neurotic leftist historian like Romila Thapar accepts that the Indian Musical System (Hindustani and Carnatic) have their core origins in the Sama vEdam!
- From: idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Tue Jun 3 22:38:48 EDT 2003
Karuvaayan said:
//That is bullshi*t. There are atleast 7 swarAs, anudattas, visargAs mentioned in the Sama Veda. Even a neurotic leftist historian like Romila Thapar accepts that the Indian Musical System (Hindustani and Carnatic) have their core origins in the Sama vEdam! //
Common Karuvaayan, you can do better. Stop lieing and just point the verses of Sama Veda which talks about these 7 swaras. There is NONE. Repeat - There is NONE.
This is a challenge to you - Point to me the verses of Sama Veda which mentions the 7 swaras.
//And, being atheistic why are you so interested in the bhajans of Vallalar?//
Stop worrying about what I am and pay attention to what I say.
And read the Vedas please. Subramanya Bharati can wait!
- From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Tue Jun 3 23:26:49 EDT 2003
English translation of Sama Veda at:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sv.htm
- From: Karuvayan (@ law-b8.law.utexas.edu)
on: Tue Jun 3 23:31:44 EDT 2003
Dear Burnt out Dosai, clear your dosai kall Thalai from the DK/DMK ideology.
In anycase, I correct my statement, formalized music originates from the Gandharva Vedam, which is a part of the sAma vEdam.
The Sillapadhikaram is dated no earlier than 200 BCE. But the sAma vEda is dated much before, i.e atleast till 1500 BCE.
Besides, there is inscriptional evidence from north india and elsewhere that the sAma vedam was chanted in a musical style.
Todate, even carnatic music has many elements from the sAma vedam. I am not downplaying the role of Sillapadikaram here. I say a SYNTHESIS and a SYMBIOTIC development occured which has Cross Fertilized the cultural mileu present today.
For your information, those rites which you accuse of being primitive in the vedas, was studied by Prof. Frits Staal, emeritus professor of philosophy at University of California at Berkeley.
Here are few links and please do a google search on Frits Staal to learn more about him:
http://www.namboothiri.com/articles/saamavedam.htm
and
http://www.namboothiri.com/articles/public-photos.htm
- From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Wed Jun 4 00:59:38 EDT 2003
What part of Sama Vedam is Gandarva Vedam?? How many chapters (or lines) has it. Where in your 'gandarva Vedam' does the 7 swaras, sarigamapadaniSa, mentioned? What basis do you have for the dates Silapadikaram and Sama Veda? What does that inscription say about sarigamapadaniSa. What are the elements of carnatic music that is from the Sama Veda?
You just issue sweeping statements in you reply - all total untruths. First, karuvaayan, my boy - please read the Sama Veda, then listen to some Chinese traditional music that has origins long before Sama Veda.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/multimedia/chinese-music/html/traditional.html
Then perhaps you should listen to Barathithasan 'Thunbam Nergaiyil' at:
http://www.dhool.com/sotd/thunbam.rm
Thank you for you pointers to Prof. Staal - I will go there and see.
- From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg)
on: Wed Jun 4 07:50:46 EDT 2003
Karuvaayan Said:
//For your information, those rites which you accuse of being primitive in the vedas, was studied by Prof. Frits Staal, emeritus professor of philosophy at University of California at Berkeley.//
Sorry to tell you, karuvaayan, Prof Staal, after much study in vedic rituals, discovered that drugs like cannabis,opium, and hassish were used to bring about hallucinations and a sense of mysticism and 'miracles' - He draws a resemblence to vedic rituals and the state of mind that it give to drug abuse. This is what he says:
http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/exploring_mysticism.html
'If we want to follow Pantanjali's lead in the Yogasutra, and Vasubandhu's in the Abhidharmakosa, it would seem safe to conclude that drugs may assist in the bringing about of certain results, which can also be reached by other methods of training, such as meditation.'
And of the 'namboodri' sites you pointed there is not reference to music proper in them, expect for a brief mention that 'Sama vedas are sung'.
Prof Staal's opinions works against your mission to promote barbaric vedic rituals.
- From: Karuvayan (@ law-b8.law.utexas.edu)
on: Wed Jun 4 16:50:29 EDT 2003
//then listen to some Chinese traditional music that has origins long before Sama Veda. //
This is again some crap without scholarship. Chinese civilization developed independently from the India and it is chinese culture that was influence by India and not the other way round.
Only around the 7th Century CE did Buddhism travel through central Asia into china.
//'If we want to follow Pantanjali's lead in the Yogasutra, and Vasubandhu's in the Abhidharmakosa, it would seem safe to conclude that drugs may assist in the bringing about of certain results, which can also be reached by other methods of training, such as meditation.'//
That is not completely true. See these website for what meditation is really about when explored on a scientific basis:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2725487.stm
Here are some excerpts from the above website:
"A British expert says the results - published in the journal *Psychosomatic* Medicine"
I have highlighted Psychosomatic since, Prof.Klaus Klostermaier, whose book on Hinduism is used as the standard Textbook in American and European Universities, mentions in the first few pages in the introduction that "Indian Philosophy is WAY AHEAD in the field of Psychosomatics than compared to the West EVEN NOW".
And when he was refering to Indian philosophy he was refering to the Upanishads, the Vedanta Sutra, Patanjali et al.
- From: Karuvayan (@ law-b8.law.utexas.edu)
on: Wed Jun 4 16:52:43 EDT 2003
Try reading this book if you can make your dosai kall thalai understand.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688172172/qid=1054758014/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/002-4804027-0444805?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
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