Topic started by Nadopasaka (@ aappp32.buffnet.net) on Fri Mar 10 11:43:41 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
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Is there some code of conduct for kutcheries ?
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Responses:
- Old responses
- From: narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Tue Apr 11 07:58:08 EDT 2000
Nado:
I dont remember the krithi but it was in "Khanda Chapu" Thalam.
- From: PPN (@ padma.math.mun.ca)
on: Tue Apr 11 08:31:24 EDT 2000
What do you think about the recent flood of cassettes/CD's by young artists (Nityashri, Unnikrishnan, Sudham Bombay jayashri etc) with exotic titles such as "Enthraling melodies, Enchanting songs, Lilting melodies, and so forth, all Carnatic recordings with an Orchestra, usually
music by one L. Krishnan or K. S. Raghu, and produced by INRECO, VANI, etc. There is absolutely no raga alapana/niraval/kalpana swarams, and percussion solo, and most of these are "Thukkada" type melodies (but very popular songs by popular composers), and some of these resemble film music. There was a write-up on these types of audio recordings in the recent issue of SRUTI magazine. The writer bought several "classical" carnatic tapes,but found they all fell in the "orchestra" caregory, with no raga alapana, niraval, swarams etc, and the writer wants the recording companies to indicate on then outer jacket clearly whether it is a traditional carnatic vocal ,or an orchestra type popular music. One point to remark is that these recordings serve to create an interest in the present-day youngsters an awareness of Carnatic music.
- From: narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Tue Apr 11 08:41:44 EDT 2000
PPN:
Very true...
The whole idea of originality in a recorded album is to be questioned. IMHO it is worser than AIR concerts where the artist is bound ONLY by the time factor.
- From: IR (@ dialup-63.210.129.2.boston1.level3.net)
on: Tue Apr 11 09:10:36 EDT 2000
>>>Carnatic recordings with an Orchestra<<< sucks big time - I cannot stand that for some reason.... I bought a few CD's of Sudha - live concert recordings - they were decent but again because of the "time factor", the order of songs were bizzard ::)))
Narayanan - strange but true :::))) KJY ahould be used to multiple takes as he is a play back singer - I am sure other "musicians" would be offended by those many takes :::))) (leave alone multiple takes at the AIR studios because of "balancing problems"! :::)))))
I believe this "K.S Raghunathan" guy is Dr S.R's son-in-law....
- From: narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Tue Apr 11 09:26:45 EDT 2000
IR:
Spot on... it is indeed KSR....
- From: PPN (@ padma.math.mun.ca)
on: Tue Apr 11 10:14:06 EDT 2000
Who are the two people L. Krishnan, and K. S. Raghu, whose name appear frequently in orchestra oriented carnatic audio recordings? K S Raghu(nathan) has composed a Thillana in Karnaranjani which Sudha Raghunathan has sung.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aeppp6.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Apr 11 10:22:07 EDT 2000
Do the 'starlets' get any kind of kutchery style 'pakkavaadyam' or does the orchestra make up for this as well ? These orchestral misadventures appear to be in sharp contrast to the availability of experienced accompaniment for vocalists. Most of these phonies seem to have connections to the film studios.
- From: Vasu (@ s01.austin.ibm.com)
on: Tue Apr 11 10:39:56 EDT 2000
imo, orchestrated carnatic music sucks. i once bought an Unnikrishnan cassette "mellifluous melodies" and it really really sucked. but may be there are people who cant enjoy "hardcore" carnatic but only "filmy" types. the cd/cassette cover does indicate somewhere in small print "orchestrated by:" or "music by:" this or that guy. in general, its better to be cautious before you buy titles like "melodies, songs" etc. Some companies dont even do that, i was recently disappointed by a purandaradasa collection by M.Santhanam, which was really 'semi-classical'. (in contrast to MLVs fab rendering). Such orchestration may be are good on some tamil tukkadas, but not on thyagaraja's kritis. i cant imagine how it would be if these guys orchestrate MD's kritis. God save them.
- From: IR (@ columbo.lifeworks.com)
on: Tue Apr 11 10:45:06 EDT 2000
Nado - usually the orchestration is in addition to the "Kutchery Style" pakkavaadhyam ::))
Nado - The idea is to sell more to people that would be interested in buying CD's for "nithyasree" or "Unni's" star value :) Now, make a wild guess about their interest in "pure" kutchery style formats ::)))
I am really scared to buy a CD without listening to it as most new CD's turn out to be this way...
- From: IR (@ columbo.lifeworks.com)
on: Tue Apr 11 10:47:26 EDT 2000
Vasu - bingo - that was the first CD I bought and sucked big time - most Sudha Ragunathan CD's are also like that :)
- From: Lakshman (@ ppp10263.on.bellglobal.com)
on: Tue Apr 11 10:53:46 EDT 2000
IR:
The trend in having orchestra accompaniment got started with the Lalgudi Tillana cassette which, IMHO, was overmodulated and sounded totally commercial.
- From: narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Tue Apr 11 10:55:57 EDT 2000
IR:
The best way i think is my way...never buy a new CD...I am very happy with the recording "quality" of old Semmangudi and Ariyakudi concerts :-)))
- From: Narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Tue Apr 11 10:58:40 EDT 2000
Lakshman:
In the Lalgudi Tillana album the Orchestr and the thillana parts never synchronised. There was a definite gap between them.
- From: IR (@ columbo.lifeworks.com)
on: Tue Apr 11 11:20:30 EDT 2000
Very True Lakshman and Narayanan - but IMO, it is more annoying in a vocal CD than an instrumental CD - although it is intolerable in both :)
:::))))) Narayanan
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp10.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Apr 11 11:30:15 EDT 2000
I think our old friend BMK also got the ball rolling with BRamdas and PDasa krities rendered in this way. Bombay sisters have also tried this out. Now Annamacharya and NTirtha are shifting uneasily in their samadhis as well. They can hear the heacy footsteps of the dance-dramatics approaching. Poor Kanyakumari, some of her ideas are not too bad though.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp10.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Apr 11 11:31:45 EDT 2000
sorry heavy footsteps, even I was beginning to shake with quiet rage.
- From: narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Tue Apr 11 12:14:42 EDT 2000
Nado:
I would say that the BRamdas krithis of BMK are not that bad. They do not qualify to be Classical Albums as the Ragams are different. The album is classified as Light Classical for which the orchestra is not that bad :--)).
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp10.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Apr 11 12:20:52 EDT 2000
Other than the 'asahya raagam' from celluloid's orchestras, has BMK adorned his so-called krities in this manner ?? The 2-3 note raagas may be simpler for a multitude of performers to get at correctly ( whatever that means )all at once.
- From: Ramji (@ 205.177.170.146)
on: Tue Apr 11 12:31:29 EDT 2000
From: narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98) on: Tue Apr 11 10:55:57 EDT 2000
Quote begins:
IR:
The best way i think is my way...never buy a new CD...I am very happy with the recording "quality" of old Semmangudi
and Ariyakudi concerts :-)))
Quote ends.
I seem to be in distinguished company. I have Semmangudi cassettes where I can not figure out the words ( even in Tamil krities) but become one with the music. Ofcourse, he could bring emotion even to swarams.
- From: PPN (@ padma.math.mun.ca)
on: Tue Apr 11 12:45:34 EDT 2000
M. Santhanam had a twin cassette (HMV label) called SANGAMAM, which is an orchestra music. Perhaps, after Lalgudi's Sounds of Thillana, this was thje first vocal orchestra attemp. The music was Carnatic of course, and orchestra by Ilayaraja or soem one in film industry.
- From: haris (@ inet-fw2-o.oracle.com)
on: Tue Apr 11 13:49:22 EDT 2000
PPN, sangamam is M.santhanam and MSV.
i recently received 4/5 cassetes (from india) of b. jayasri , sudha R etc... and all of them - though without Orchestration - were filled with tukkada songs..
I think, the best is to go for LIVE recordings.. (though even is cut- short), has some aalapana, niraval, swaraas.. when i go to shops personally to buy Carnatic cassets, i never one which has more then 5 songs ( A+B put together..).
- From: Vasu (@ s06.austin.ibm.com)
on: Tue Apr 11 13:59:01 EDT 2000
I agree with IR. if its instrumental, you can just blame "fusion experimentation" for that. i think several other violinists have tried that (with drums & whatnot). But on vocal, it sounds a bit off. after Sudha's CD experience im already on narayanan's way: never buy a new cd, unless completely sure.
- From: PPN (@ padma.math.mun.ca)
on: Tue Apr 11 13:59:59 EDT 2000
haris:
I agree. In North America, we usually get concert recordings in complete form, usually in 2 C90 tapes, and sometimes an additional C60. You get everything, including some vote of thanks speeches. The recording quality is also very good.
They usually sell for about 12 dollars. Also, they use quality Maxell XLII or TDK D tapes.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp37.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Apr 11 14:03:37 EDT 2000
LSubramaniam and LShankar were pushing the envelope many years ago. I think in this dubious effort LShankar had a head start on many with his double violin, he was trying to be a one-man orchestra at times.
- From: Vasu (@ slip129-37-120-134.tx.us.prserv.net)
on: Tue Apr 11 21:43:51 EDT 2000
Extending haris' remark of buying carnatic recordings with 4-5 compositions, i think the recordings with only one kriti given full treatment repay every penny spent on it. one of them i bought recently is KJY's Live Concert (MD's Vatapi Ganapathim in Hamsadwani). Just wonderful. (one could argue that KJYs diction is not 'proper', but still he is one of the few guys who gives me a great 'mental-piece' hearing his renditions). Detailed alapana, neraval and fantastic kalpanaswaras, both in madhyamakala and fast tempo are features of this recording. The recording is for 1hr, and is absolutely superb.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp44.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Apr 11 22:09:19 EDT 2000
Vasu, It might be useful to know when and where exactly these 'live' concerts are made.
Tha analogy to the Grecian urn is appropriate. You can buy several , seemingly flawless reproductions of such pots in K-marts garden store, but you can't replace the classicism of the sometimes cracked, stained , weatherbeaten original. A neon lamp oven and weak clay is no match for the hearth of experience and the fiber of feeling. Such is the crucible of the vaggeyakaras and their true apostles.
I find ALL starlets ( including the has-beens and never-wases ) come up short when contemplation, interpretation and depth of rendering is considered. I had some expectations of Bombay Jaysree but these have yet to be realised. As for KJY, it is my opinion that anyone who would spend 100 'takes' on a 4 minute kriti should not be confused as a perfectionist, rather this gives new meaning to the word Art as in Art-ificial. He should stick to the melodies and ditties that serenade the clowns of celluloid as they cavort around some trees and bushes.
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