Topic started by Nadopasaka on Mon Feb 21 21:10:55 .
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Thyagaraja is unique among all vaggeyakaras. What is the source of this uniqueness ?
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Responses:
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- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp94.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Apr 4 04:29:25 EDT 2000
The enumeration of authorities in Vidulaku above, especially musical, is more detailed than even 'Endaro Maha..' the Sri Pancharatna.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp47.buffnet.net)
on: Wed Apr 5 03:53:00 EDT 2000
More minutiae ?? The Panchanada/panchanadisha pancharatnas (if there is some such group ) of Tyg. krities might be the five = IlaloPranataarthihara (ataana), Muripemu (mukhari), MuccataB (madhyamavati), EhiTrijagadeesha(saranga) and possibly SariVedalina(asaveri) which refers to the Kaveri but not Panchanada directly.
The Dharmasamvardhini/Dharmambike subset of Panchanada ksetra krities appear to be the 10 krities = AmmaDharmasamvardhani(ataana), Parasakti(saveri), KarunaJuduvamma(todi), Sive Pahimam(kalyani), BaleBalendu(reetigowla), AmbaNinnu(arabhi), NanuKannaTalli(kesari), Innalavale(desyaTodi), Vidhisakra(yamuna-kalyani) and NeevuBrovavale(saveri). The two saveris and the use of Adi talam for almost all the krities indicates the lack of formality/planning that is characteristic of the Sadguru's torrent.
It is interesting that several krities of MD which refer to Kaveri are in similar raagas as the above such as Karikalabha(saveri), Jambupathe(yamuna-kalyani), PahimamRatnachala(mukhari) and Kumbheswaraya(kalyani). Also MD's PranataarthiHara(nayaki) refers to the Panchanadaksetra.
Syamasastri has a fine Saveri 'Durusuga' and Todi 'Emanimigula' that also refer to Dharmasamvardhani. SS's panchanada kriti 'KarunaJuduvamma' is in Varali, unlike Tyg's Todi.
There is little doubt in my mind that the Trinity were generally aware of each others works, even though the influences on each other may not be easily illustrated.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp82.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Apr 7 03:23:35 EDT 2000
Is there any kriti in Hamsadhwani by Tyagaraja other than the now disputed 'Raghunayaka' and shri Raghukula ? This is supposed to be a raaga concocted by Ramaswami Dikshitar, MD's father. MD's Vathapi must be one of the most performed pieces ever. Parvatipati, another MD kriti is a samasthi charana and a pale shadow of VatGanap.
- From: siva (@ firestorm3.imrglobal.co.jp)
on: Fri Apr 7 04:26:50 EDT 2000
Nado:
There is a vocal recital by Lalgudi Jayaraman with Krishnan on Violin where he has sung the Lalgudi Pancharatnams.
- From: Narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Fri Apr 7 04:39:47 EDT 2000
Nado:
"Abheesta Varada Sri Mahaganapathe" is another Thyagaraja Krithi in Hamsadhwani.
- From: Ramji (@ 205.177.170.136)
on: Fri Apr 7 07:14:50 EDT 2000
I feel humbled by the knowledge surfacing from this and the other music threads.
. ҍ.
- From: Narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Fri Apr 7 07:40:24 EDT 2000
Ramji:
...siru thuli peru vellam....
- From: IR (@ dialup-63.210.129.120.boston1.level3.net)
on: Fri Apr 7 07:48:31 EDT 2000
yes, very true Ramji.... I am beginning to feel at home, ever since I "discovered" this forum :)
- From: Narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Fri Apr 7 08:11:59 EDT 2000
IR/Ramji:
Very true.. I wish i live somewhere in the US just to be more interactive in this forum :::)))
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aeppp1.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Apr 7 16:26:35 EDT 2000
If I am not mistaken Tyagaraja was a title taken by this individual ( or assigned to him by an adoring public ) because of his lifestyle of sacrifice. Also you have to have something valuable to give up, before you can claim such a title. In this context, it is interesting that he would use this 'mudra' unequivocally in all krities. On the one hand it seems reasonable for a devotee, engaged in a personal conversation with his deities. But supreme sacrifice may also entail subjugating the ego.
- From: Krishnamurthy Shyam (@ net166-232.its.yale.edu)
on: Fri Apr 7 18:24:50 EDT 2000
Nadopasaka:
According to Sri Suddhananda Bharati's biographical sketch which appears in Rangaramanuja Iyengar's "Kriti Mani Malai", Tyagaraja was the name given to him by his parents, Rama Brahmam and Shanta Devi, who were devotees of Tiruvarur Tyagesa.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp42.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Apr 7 19:13:08 EDT 2000
There is one tradition that believes his mothers name was Sita not Shanta. No doubt this is helped also by a kriti such as 'Sitamma mayamma, sri Ramudu matandri'. (of course RamaBrahma tanayudau appears in Dorakuna etc.)
But a life of sacrifice could not have been ordained by his family or for that matter by any given names, indeed there are reports that his elder brother was always hassling him to capitalize on his talents. He got a lot of grief from his cousins as well, as cited by VRaghavan in the intro. to the Spirit. Herit. text.
- From: Krishnamurthy Shyam (@ net231-174.its.yale.edu)
on: Sat Apr 8 08:32:23 EDT 2000
I certainly agree with you that "a life of sacrifice could not have been ordained by his family or for that matter by any given names". I was merely responding to your earlier comment that "Tyagaraja (could have been)(parentheses mine) a title taken by this individual (or assigned to him by an adoring public) because of his lifestyle of sacrifice." As for Tyagaraja's mother, some biographies, like William Jackson's "Tyagaraja-Life and Lyrics", don't mention her by name (unless I missed it completely!). Somehow, "Sita" does sound a more appropriate name for his mother! You will probably agree that to conclude that it was, in fact, "Sita", from a song like "Seetamma mayamma" is a bit of a "reach" since in the same breath he also calls Lakshmana, Satrughna, Jambavan and Bharata his brothers. In the charanam, he expands his circle of relatives to include Paramasiva, Vasishta et al.! On the other hand, "Ramabrahma tanayudau" in "Dorakuna yituvanti seva" is the kind of evidence that one wants to see. Still inconclusive but much better than the previous example.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aeppp29.buffnet.net)
on: Sat Apr 8 10:16:11 EDT 2000
The real question however is 'Why the use of the 'mudra' in Tyagaraja krities' ? If the sacrificial and self-effacing values are as legendary as history makes them out.
Unless they were originally intended only as a pointer in the personal dialogue with SriRama, then transferred to the generic devotee as a message of austerity, thus making universally accessible Tyagarajas unique insight.
- From: Krishnamurthy Shyam (@ net245-243.its.yale.edu)
on: Sun Apr 9 11:41:28 EDT 2000
Nadopasaka: Your second paragraph just blew me away. Very well said. This may also explain why Tyagaraja hand-picked his disciples based on their ability to render his songs faithfully. Clever improvisers were discouraged from joining the team (P. Sambamoorthy). Doesn't sound very self-effacing unless he (like the Buddha) felt duty-bound to communicate his "unique insight" to the world.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ abppp17.buffnet.net)
on: Sun Apr 9 14:41:51 EDT 2000
KShyam, 'Adhikarabheda' is the prerogative of a Guru based on his view of the station of his shishyas. What do think of the idea of sangatis, believed to have been implemented first by Tyagaraja ? GNB particularly, excelled in these and coincidentally there is a view that he didn't put bhakti bhava first.
- From: Ramji (@ 205.177.170.103)
on: Sun Apr 9 18:18:15 EDT 2000
Nado has raised a very intriguing question.Compare with the signatures of MD-Guruguha(right?)- and Swathi thirunal - Padmanabaha-.?
I am just trying a shot at this as a layperson( even an alien) in the realm of Bhakthi Bhava. The signature is possibly just a symbol of the small self ( the Bhaktha) seeking the Cosmic Self ( symbolized by Lord Rama e.g.)
I yield to the knowledgable friends here.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp96.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Apr 10 01:20:37 EDT 2000
It should be noted that several Tyagaraja krities include his mudra as 'Shri Tyagaraja' cf. Nadupai(mmvati), Nepogadakunte(varali), Both Bangalas (Munupe and Girirajasuta ) , Kamalaaptakula(brind.saranga), DevaSritapastirtha(mmvati-LalgudiPR) etc. etc. The musical presence of this 'Shri' syllable may be undeniable and well annotated, but it sounds slightly presumptuous. Is it possible this is an example of the zealousness of the Umayalpuram brothers ? In this context I understand that it is indeed rare to find a painting by a great master NOT inscribed with his/her initials/name.
Tyagaraja seems generic and innocuous enough until one begins to apply the standards that underlie that title. Indeed, Ramji, we might all be alien to some of the standards of Tyagaraja or MD.
MD's mudra also has many uses of Shri with Guruguha but this usage is clearly different from the Tyagaraja usage and probably irrelevant to this present discussion. Some MD examples are Anandaamrutavarshini, Shri GuruguhaTarayaasumam(devakriya), TyagarajaPalayashu(gaula), TygYogavaibha(ana. bhairavi) , Govindarajam(mukhari), etc. etc.
- From: Krishnamurthy Shyam (@ net162-199.med.yale.edu)
on: Mon Apr 10 17:42:33 EDT 2000
Nadopasaka: Neither Tyagaraja nor Purandaradasa included sangatis among the essential ingredients of a kriti. Yet Tyagaraja decided to make sangatis an integral part of his compositions. The reasons could be any of the following:
1. This way the composer (Sri T.) ensures that the sangatis (like all other aspects of devotional music) are always subordinated to the bhakthi bhava. Leave it up to the singer as MD did and you are courting disaster. (Recently, I listened to some monstrous renderings of MD's Sri Kamalamba Navavarna krithis, some of the greatest pieces ever composed in my opinion. I use the CDs as coffee coasters now.)
2. If sangatis are absent in a kriti, the average musician feels compelled to introduce them any way. It is part of the 'see-what-I-can-do' syndrome. So give him a few pre-made sangatis to chew on, tire him out and hope that he bails out. Anyone who has attempted to sing "O Rangasayee" or "Koluvamare" knows exactly what I mean. There is, however, very little protection against the musician whose tremendous stamina is matched by his singular lack of talent.
3. Sangatis have mass appeal and are the most entertaining and often humorous part of a Carnatic music concert. The "aahaas" you hear in concert halls are often responses to surprising and delightful sangatis. They, more than any other aspect of devotional music, seem to convince simple-minded people like me that spiritual and aesthetic experiences are not just for the initiated, the scholarly, the humorless and the dyspeptic. It is important to remember that humor can often degenerate into flippancy as this message seems to have!
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp42.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Apr 10 19:47:03 EDT 2000
Word-splitting with resultant nonsense sounds is indeed abetted by some creative sangatis. The 8-9 times GNB varies the 'rajitamanigana' phrase in Darini are not particularly murderous, though. I am not sure of the extent of (or lack of) sangatis prescribed in the Navaavaranas or other MD krities.
I looked up the Spirit. Herit text and have to report that I found 'sitamma' mentioned only in 2 krities Lekana-asaveri and the SitammaMayamma Lalita ( i think ). There are numerous references to Sita as xyz-tanaya and other synonyms. Can't say if this means anything for sure, especially indicating the name of his mother. But the relative lack is suggestive. Sitamma is favorite of BRamdas usage, though. Girirajasuta-tanaya (Bangala) is also a bit confusing because history reports that the Grandfather of Tyg. was someone named Giriraja.
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