Topic started by Nadopasaka on Tue Feb 1 01:43:34 .
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I read somewhere ( an old record sleeve, maybe ) that a good voice (??) in Indian Classical Music (ICM) was as important as good handwriting to a poet.
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Responses:
- From: Dave (@ daprx02new.ext.nokia.com)
on: Tue Feb 1 13:26:53 EST 2000
In my opinion, there is a difference between good
voice and cultured voice. In Hindustani, voice is
cultured through years and years of Riyaz.
I think we should give more importance to
cultured voice than good voice.
I read that (source ??) in Indian tradition,
vocal music is considered the highest form of
music. Hence all compositions are for vocal
rendition. It is my understanding that in
Canatic, the instrumentalist play voice based
compositions and follow the same sequence as
vocalist in rendering a composition.
Is this true in Hindustani too? Isn't the
sequence for instrumental performance different
from that of vocal?
Vocal sequence:
Vilambit (slow tempo)
Drut (fast)
Ati Drut
Instrumental:
Alap
Jhod
Jhala
How about the compositions? Do Hindustani
instrumentalists use vocal compositions?
Musicians of some Gharanas specialize in
instruments. e.g. Maihar, Senia, Indore
(excpet the Amir Khan lineage) Gharanas
Thanks, Dave
- From: Prasad (@ hoproxy2.proxy.lucent.com)
on: Wed Feb 9 06:27:10 EST 2000
AFAIK Alap Jhod and jhala are the carnatic equivalent of Ragam Thanam Pallavi
Please correct me If I am wrong..
- From: suhas (@ 203.197.55.169)
on: Wed Feb 9 07:49:25 EST 2000
I think that the equlvalent for taanam is taan
I might be wrong
- From: Sree (Puduhai Sreeram) (@ 134.243.96.152)
on: Wed Feb 9 09:48:55 EST 2000
Nadopasaka wrote:
"I read somewhere ( an old record sleeve, maybe ) that a good voice (??) in Indian Classical
Music (ICM) was as important as good handwriting to a poet. "
In C. Music circle there's a saying that goes something like "sArIram sangIthathukku sApam" or something along the line. Roughly translated it means that a "good voice is a curse for good music".
Barring MS Subulakshmi, most of the *highly respected* (and I don't mean popular with the masses) C. Music vocalists of 20th century have all had average to poor "voice".
- From: Prasad (@ hoproxy1.proxy.lucent.com)
on: Thu Feb 10 02:37:52 EST 2000
I beg to differ from you on this.
MLV,Maharajapuram Santhanam,MVIyer all ha good voice.Among the contemporaries,OST,TVS,Sudha Raghunathan .....all these have a good voice.and I am sure Sudha and OST can produce really High class carnatic music.any inputs?
- From: Sree (Puduhai Sreeram) (@ 134.243.96.152)
on: Thu Feb 10 09:25:56 EST 2000
I stand by my statement - "Barring MSS......" and the operative word in that sentence is "highly respected" (by music critics and contemporaries) and I did emphasize that by saying highly respected I didn't mean "popular" with the masses. ;-) I have recordings of MVIyer and IMHO his voice is an average voice as compared to say, Yesudas or Balamurali.
I don't want to get controversial here as it is very subjective as to which artist one likes. The artists you have mentioned above are all "good" and some of them indeed have above "average" voice. Indeed, some of them have been mercilessly attacked by music critics for singing in "false raspy" voice and focusing more on it than the sowkhyam of the music. I'm not sure if they have mellowed enough to be compared to the greats like Ariyakudi, MMI, Musiri, Semmangudi, GNB, Chembai, MDR et al and whether they have reached such a stage that they inspire awe among their contemporaries and the musically knowledgeable folks. IMHO, they are not quite there yet.
- From: Narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Thu Feb 10 10:33:27 EST 2000
Prasad:
I strongly support Sree...
Please hear to some of the Dikshitar krithis sung by Sudha and OST (available at DL Sivakumar's site). You will for sure have a second thought.
They are no doubt "Popular" artists .. but not high quality ones for sure...I have been hearing OST day in day out for the past few years as he lives next door....but never made an impact on me...
- From: Prasad (@ hoproxy2.proxy.lucent.com)
on: Thu Feb 10 23:29:54 EST 2000
Sudha might have had an immature voice when she was young but i feel now she has Improved a lot and she definitekly will mature with time.She cannot now be compared to those legendary artistes that sree has mentioned.only time can answer this question.
as far as OST i see that IMHO he is improving in every concert and those recordings of M V Iyer i am not sure when they were recorded .If it was done when he was at the peak then I cannot really comment on it but if it was recorded when he was at the twilight of his career then we need to check out some of those concert when he was at his peak.If you have already listened to the Raga malika clip in MusicIndiaOnline,you may not be saying this.These are my pesonal opinions on them and about Yesu and BMK though I like Yesu's voice I do not like his singing.I do like BMK for his compositions and the creativity in them more than his singing.
Thanks,
Prasad
- From: Nadospaska (@ akppp7.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Feb 11 05:33:23 EST 2000
Hugh Downs once asked Zubin Mehta ( on 20/20 ) whether he listened to Pop music ( I think he was referring to the Pops, american notion of western classical music ). The answer was a sharp and resoiunding God Forbid ! No !
Mehta went on to say that he felt certain it would detract from his picture of classical music.
The chaste Carnatic voice ( well past the technical prowess that comes with culture/goodness ) can be blunted by the articulation of other styles. I understand during learning certain ragas are also not advocated for similar reasons. I don't know exactly whether this comes from ignoring the gamaka, or overusing it, or singing louder etc.
I think this effect is discernible in the cross-over performers ( MSS, sudha, later BMK, yesudass ) and that it might be irreversible.
- From: Prasad (@ hoproxy1.proxy.lucent.com)
on: Fri Feb 11 07:14:14 EST 2000
I do agree that It is there in Yesu and later BMK but i shall listen to Sudha next time with this in my mind.
- From: Sree (Puduhai Sreeram) (@ 134.243.96.152)
on: Fri Feb 11 09:22:36 EST 2000
Nadopasaka wrote:
>I think this effect is discernible in the
>cross-over performers ( MSS, sudha, later BMK,
>yesudass) and that it might be irreversible.
I'm surprised that you have included MSS in this list. By cross-over performers, if you meant those that sang for films, then you ought to include MVIyer (nanthanAr sariththiram) and GNB also. I don't think they were affected by that. Do you have the same complaints about them as well? BTW, why do you call Sudha a cross-over performer? I'm aware of Nithyasree and Bombay Jayashree singing in movies but Sudha? Hmmm
It is my personal opinion that MSS is beyond reproach in maintaining the purity of her c.music performance. Whatever she sings there is sincerity and devotion in her approach. She is truly one of the greatest both as a performer and as a humanitarian.
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.96.152)
on: Fri Feb 11 09:26:16 EST 2000
Prasad:
I have a live concert recording of MVIyer with Govindaswamy Naickar and Kumbakonam Rajamanicakam Pillai. Recording is not all that great but I still stand by statement of his voice being "average". Once again, what is average is very subjective.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp47.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Feb 11 10:32:54 EST 2000
I am aware of GNB's forays into early celluloid. Even though the films of that era had different requirements from these artistes, I think he and MVI were still worse off for such misadventures.
As 'entertainers' in films or lighter presentations etc. now Sudha , Jaysree have to deal with this dilemma. Their early stuff seemed OK, also seem to remember pin-paat of Sudha with MLV.
Not at all comfortable about Nityasree.
I also continue to remain less fulfilled with MSS despite her obvious sincerity.
- From: Prasad (@ hoproxy1.proxy.lucent.com)
on: Fri Feb 11 22:24:44 EST 2000
MSS is sincere..her pronounciation is great,voice is excellent.but MS s musical performance as regards to alapanas,swarams and neravals are not all that great.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp20.buffnet.net)
on: Thu Feb 24 00:43:30 EST 2000
Human voice is the first and most natural means of returning life-breath to the elements. So its ascendancy in Carnatic music is obvious. The profusion of raagas derived (technically) from the # 26-29 melas has been the general forum for this great exercise of thanks through the ages.
It is odd that a similar clustering of interest does not exist around melas # 64-66, especially MechaKalyani, which is quite popular by itself.
I cannot off hand think of so-called janya ragas of Vachaspati or Latangi. Even Kalyani janyas seem rare. Kamavardhani (51) is only marginally better.
Is this related to the human voice ? The C scale equivalent of Sankarabharanam also dominates Western music. It can in fact succesfully obliterate other tunes as seen in Irish, country music.
An analogy to space travel can be made. The known universe is vast yet human hopes of moving around in it barely extend to 2-3 planets with current technology.
Do we similarly need a new sound vehicle to explore the galaxies of distant melas ?
Look forward to your comments.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp4.buffnet.net)
on: Thu Mar 9 14:11:50 EST 2000
What is the contribution in compositions by instrumentalists such as Lalgudi, VeenaKuppier, Mys. Doreswamy I. to the 'foreign' sounding ragas ? MohanaKalyani is recent and seems fairly inevitable. What is the source of the core melody, folk tunes ?
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp4.buffnet.net)
on: Sun Mar 19 15:16:59 EST 2000
How is the modern microphone affecting CM vocalists ? In todays world unless you listen to 'live' music, all sounds are disembodied and electronic. What is this doing to the gamaka ?
- From: Sandeep Bhalchandra Bapat (@ )
on: Wed Mar 17 06:52:03
I want to get a site, which will give knowledge about different Ragas and Talas with notations..
Sandeep
- From: Sandeep Bhalchandra Bapat (@ 61.1.112.150)
on: Wed Mar 17 06:53:48 EST 2004
I want to get a site, which will give knowledge about different Ragas and Talas with notations..
Sandeep
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