Topic started by paulasee (@ ss06.ny.us.ibm.com) on Fri Feb 25 14:39:14 .
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Which path is the Carnatic Music going..? Who are the true Audience of this art? Why is this music still an untouchable to common man/woman?
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Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Paul (@ ss03.ny.us.ibm.com)
on: Fri Mar 3 14:09:30 EST 2000
sree wrote: "Coming back to CM/CTM, I think some of the light music singers are doing a great service by first kindling the interest in a lay man. As one gets hooked on to this kind of music and develops a ear for it, he would progressively move towards listening to more and more heavy stuff and eventually learn relevant components of the music."
Rather than trying hard to educate each and every lay man to develop an ear for listening to CM..
can we not reduce the complexities of CM and make it more simple..?
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.96.152)
on: Fri Mar 3 15:37:27 EST 2000
Paul wrote: "Rather than trying hard to
educate each and every lay man to develop
an ear for listening to CM.. can we not
reduce the complexities of CM and make
it more simple..? "
Would you say the same thing for Theory of Relativity, Chaos theory, Vector Calculus and other hard to understand scientific principles? Even those take years of dedicated study to understand those abstruse concepts. Why not "reduce the complexities of those" so everyone can talk science, right Paul? ;-)
Listen, there are going to be things in life that are hard to understand/learn. One should take measures to learn them if one wishes so.
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.96.152)
on: Fri Mar 3 15:41:00 EST 2000
Oh Paul, BTW, rather than engaging in meaningless ramblings, could you suggest some concert steps to simplify the complexities of CM/CTM? How do you want to do that?
- From: Paul (@ ss01.ny.us.ibm.com)
on: Fri Mar 3 16:35:14 EST 2000
I dont know why you compare science to music.. any way.. Theory of relativity, Vector calculus.. layman can never understand it..TRUE.. But he need not understand it.. we only apply the concept of science in our life.. not the understanding of science..
For example.. A layman need not know anything about the theory behind the centre of gravity.. yet he can manage to balance his bicycle and ride it to his heart's content..
Even music is like that.. you need not know any thing about music and still should be able to enjoy it..
you wanted me to suggest some concert steps to simplify the complexities of CM..
What i observed in most concert's is.. that.. It is not the MUSIC that is appreciated.. but it is the mastery of the musician.. the complexities of the various patterns evolved within the boundaries of the specified ragas and talas.. which is appreciated and applauded.. For that you obviously need to know something about CM.. which the layman doesnt have..
My suggestion.. Perform CM which use simple talams and things like that.. may be that will help.. Let people who know CM put the musician's mastery on trial.. but let the common man enjoy it too..
- From: Vasu (@ s01.austin.ibm.com)
on: Fri Mar 3 20:00:04 EST 2000
I knew this topic is totally subjective and would lead nowhere. Yet Im putting my 1.99c worth of thought:
Paul: Despite so much qtns & replies, its not clear what your wish is. You say CM (Carn Music) is untouchable for c.m (common man). then you say music is like science, c.m should not understand yet enjoy it.
Day in and day out every music we hear can somehow be mapped to one or more CM ragas. Lots of filmy songs are in delightful CM ragas & simple talas. For eg vasantha mullai pole vandu is in charukesi. Does your c.m care what raga it is? No. Does he enjoy it? Of course yes. Thirupparkadalil by MSV is in classic Bhairavi. Does your c.m care what raga it is? No. Does he enjoy it? you betcha. IR has given thousands of songs based on specific ragas, as a knowledgeable man listens, yet enjoyable to every c.m.
"Perform CM which use simple talams and things like that."
What do you mean by simple talams etc? Most of the performances are only in aadi or rupaka tala. Have you heard any pallavi recently in simhananda tala?
CM is an art. To understand any art you or your c.m. should spend some energy. If your cm dont want to understand yet enjoy it like the way you ride a bicycle, your c.m can still do that by listening to film songs or light music songs (as Sree specified).
"but let the common man enjoy it too."
No one says "Im going to sing in such a way that cm will not understand/enjoy it". CM is still evolving. the current wave is to make it as popular as possible. it will take time.
Is it a dead Art? Not more than the therukkoothu or poikal kudirai dances or villupattu. no doubt your cm really appreciates these arts. but where are they now?
Which path its going? Wrong word. Its still evolving. Evolution can only be analysed. Not predicted. For eg its difficult to predict what a horse will look like 1 million yrs from now (given we dont eat all the horses)
Who are the true Audiences of this art? This art has many faces. In its classic face, its audiences are who know the mathematics of raga/tala. In its semi-classic face, its audiences are those who dont want to know the mathematics. In its folk face, your cm.
Why is this music still an untouchable to common man/woman?
The music is not untouchable. CM has reached the cm in different forms thats all.
To a "common man", this Great Soul said, "Follow me, I will show you God". To a more knowledgeable man he said "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you". To a much more knowledgeable man "See for yourself, you are God". That Great Soul, I have read, is Jesus.
Likewise a cm can enjoy the film songs w/o knowing its ragas. A little learned guy can try identifying ragas. A learned one can do much more than that.
- From: Chandra (@ user-38ld7pg.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Sun Mar 12 18:06:07 EST 2000
From: Sree ..said:
---
Paul wrote: "Rather than trying hard to
educate each and every lay man to develop
an ear for listening to CM.. can we not
reduce the complexities of CM and make
it more simple..? "
... Why not "reduce the complexities of
those" so everyone can talk science, right Paul? ;-)
Listen, there are going to be things in life that are hard to understand/learn. One should take measures to learn them if one wishes so.
---
Well said Sree.
I find the attitude underlying Paul's suggestion very distrubing. Trying to "dumb down" classic things in one's heritage is a sure indicator of bloated ego (in an imperosnal and collective sense).
One reason for the collective ego maybe the loss of respect for and understanding of one's heritage.That has resulted in expecting the classical elements being viewed as either anachronistic or in need of revision to suit the popular taste.
Another reason might be the arrogance developed by technological advancements which has given so many "toys" that shape the material world to suit man's tastes that man has started thinking everything must be bent to accommodate him.
He does not realize for his own long term benefit that there is a distinction between matter and mind and that the latter also *needs* cultivation.
Paul said:
--
But he need not understand it.. we only apply the concept of science in our life.. not the understanding of science..
----
Paul all this analogy is not going to help us. You need to put in a little effort to appreciate ctm. As I suggested before, just get some person who can guide you in *consciously* tracking the rise and fall of pitch in a melody and then get some album like "Thiruppaavai" by Nithyasree and listen to it repeatedly. You will find that you have wasted so much in life.
You will find why Tamil is said to be so sweet and why our civilization is so long lasting. You will understand the Tamil psyche and culture only if you enjoy CTM. You will understand truly why Auvaiyaar established the correspondence of icaith thamiz and mind in her classic veNpA
"vAkkuNdAm nalla manamuNdAm mAmmalarAL nOkkuNdAm".
You will trult understand why the Tamil kings gave away their kingdoms to pANans rendering music on their yAzhs.
Sorry for once let us act truly educated and "wise up" instead of dumbing down CTM.
But in summary your arguments fundamentally point to a severe lack of sincere and serious effort on the part of the "guardians" of CTM to train people in *appreciation* of CTM by conducting workshops etc., and more seriously they must also stop acting in a cliquish manner.
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