Topic started by nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on Wed Jul 5 08:39:04 .
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It has been suggested that a thread be started for discussing tala and for sharing some answers to our questions and confusions. Here it is! |
Responses:
- From: narayanan (@ 194.193.249.33)
on: Wed Jul 5 08:46:22 EDT 2000
Let me start...
Looking for info on Simhanandana Thalam - regarding beats (lagu , dhritham etc)... Please post information here.
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Wed Jul 5 08:49:10 EDT 2000
To begin with, here is how I understand the difference between jati and nadai...
Take adi thalam (why not, most people do most of the time!). It has three parts, one laghu and two drutums. Actually this defines TRIPUTHA THALAM.
Thriputa talam (|OO [laghu, drutam, drutam) could be from 7 to 13 counts. It depends on the Jati. The jati is the number of counts in the laghu.
There are five jatis: 4,3,7,5 and 9.
Chatusra (4) jati thriputha talam gives us 4+2+2=8 counts.
Nadai refers to the subdivision into pulses of each count. Normally 4 (chatusra) it could be 4,3,7,5, or 9.
As an example, Tisra (3) nadai Eka (presumed to be chatusra jatai unless otherwise stated) is 4*3 pulses, somwhat like a fast rupaka.
the word nadai is also used in a different sense entirely to refer to a rolling, repetative accompanying pattern played on the mridangam.
That's a start!
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Wed Jul 5 08:52:31 EDT 2000
narayanan...
Tha was quick off the mark: you got in before I finished what I thought was going to be the first message!
I carry around a little card showing the patterns of the 35 thalas, but not their names, and certainly not the 108 etc! I'll see if it is any of my books at home as one of these, though perhaps you've already looked.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp23.buffnet.net)
on: Wed Jul 5 09:14:05 EDT 2000
Are there 'taala-vadya' kutcheries anymore in CM ? I suppose this means only percussion concerts ? What is the format, if any , for such ?
- From: Lakshman (@ ppp7872.on.bellglobal.com)
on: Wed Jul 5 09:34:00 EDT 2000
Here is how Prof.Sambamurti writes the beats for the 128 aksharakala Simhanandana tala.
8 8 | 8* | 8 0 0 8 8 | 8* | 8* 8 | | +
The places where the asrerisks appear there is a short vertical line above the 8 which I could not duplicate here. Duration of an avarta is given as 32 matras and consisting of 128 aksharakalas with a total of 3 angas. I don't know what the + represents.
- From: narayanan (@ 194.193.249.33)
on: Wed Jul 5 09:57:40 EDT 2000
Lakshman:
Thanks very much for the info.
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Wed Jul 5 11:44:04 EDT 2000
We have taken off from the familiar land of laghus and druthams and are breathing the rarified air of things like plutam, guru, kakupadam. Only TVG have I seen actually use these angas, and only really to demonstrate.
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Wed Jul 5 11:48:00 EDT 2000
'taala-vadya' kutcheries do happen, I saw one advertised when I was in Chennai two years ago, but it was early in the morning and I missed it.
I would love to see this form of concert more in UK, but the closest we get tends to be percussion-based fusion of some sort.
- From: suhas (@ 203.197.75.121)
on: Wed Jul 5 12:21:31 EDT 2000
Thanks Nick For the Tala Thread
Now can you give me info on Desadi Taal.Also how is it kept with respect to finger counts etc.?
- From: nick (@ s57.pool.pm3-tele-2.cix.co.uk)
on: Wed Jul 5 15:40:01 EDT 2000
Simhanandana tala.
8 8 | 8* | 8 0 0 8 8 | 8* | 8* 8 | | +
the angas (8* meaning the eight with a short line
sticking out the top are:
| = laghu = 4 akshara
8 = guru = 8 akshara
8* = Plutham = 12 akshara
+ = kakupadam = 16 akshara
And all should add up to 128: the longest of the 108 thalas (No. 37).
(Information courtesy of Karnataka Sangeeta Sastra, English Edn. by A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer)
I think I remember someone saying that someone once sang a pallavi of 128 akshara.
- From: Lakshman (@ hse-kit-ppp38858.sympatico.ca)
on: Wed Jul 5 15:44:32 EDT 2000
The most famous composition in Simhanandana tala is the Kanada tillana Gauri nayaka by Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer.
- From: nick (@ s57.pool.pm3-tele-2.cix.co.uk)
on: Wed Jul 5 15:45:12 EDT 2000
Desadi Taal...
Haven't a clue! I notice you use the Hindustani spelling taal --- is it a hindustani rhythm?
I've checked the lists of 35- and 108-tala systems and I can't find it.
Can we have a clue??
- From: nick (@ s57.pool.pm3-tele-2.cix.co.uk)
on: Wed Jul 5 15:54:34 EDT 2000
...Ahhh, I've done some searching and www.excite.com gave quite a number of matches. Have a look at
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~sundar/rmic/kar-primer/HTMLprimer/section3_7.html
Certainly this is out of my depth!
Please excuse the total ignorance of my previous comment!!
- From: nick (@ s57.pool.pm3-tele-2.cix.co.uk)
on: Wed Jul 5 15:58:36 EDT 2000
... Actually, isn't this the same as melkalidam adi thala? Isn't that what the Bantu rethi song is?
I suppose this shouldn't be out of my depth: but it is!
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp10.buffnet.net)
on: Wed Jul 5 16:27:25 EDT 2000
It is a bit odd that MD did not give a Tala mudra in his krities. (at least I am unaware of it). Whereas he went to great lengths to incorporate the name of the raga. Are there any other krities which carry the Tala mudra ?
What exactly is the viloma Chapu and the 4+3 vs. 3+4 style that is attributed to syama sastri ? Was Syama Sastri an expert in any percussion device ? His traditional picture does not show him as such ( unless one counts his pot belly )
- From: S (@ wwwgate32.motorola.com)
on: Wed Jul 5 23:35:30 EDT 2000
>>>+ = kakupadam<<< This should be kAkapAdam ( kaakapaadam ). The 'kriya' is a beat followed by a closed fist rotation ! >>>I think I remember someone saying that someone once sang a pallavi of 128 akshara.<<< Mudikondan V I ( Lalgudi, UKS ) has demonstrated a kambhoji pallavi in the simhanandana talam at the academy; the lec-dem also includes the simhanandana kaanaDA tillAnA
- From: S (@ wwwgate32.motorola.com)
on: Thu Jul 6 00:19:33 EDT 2000
>>>What exactly is the viloma Chapu and the 4+3 vs. 3+4 style that is attributed to syama sastri<<< 3+4 is mishra chaapu. 4+3 is viloma (mishra) chapu. SS has composed kritis in the latter ( egs ninnuvinAgAmari in pUrvikalyANi, tallininnu in kalyANi ) in addn to the normal mishra chapu, in which compositions abound. There r some who feel that compositions like ninnuvina should be reckoned in mishra Ekam ( same number of counts ) since they were composed that way, and later simplified to chapu.
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Thu Jul 6 06:03:44 EDT 2000
>>>+ = kakupadam<<< This should be kAkapAdam ( kaakapaadam ). The 'kriya' is a beat followed by a closed fist rotation
Tha is the kriya for guru. kakapadam is a beat followed by three finger counts then four finger counts up, four to left then four to right.
Please excuse my spelling, which is bad enough in English and eratic when transliterating tamil/sanscrit etc.
- From: S (@ wwwgate1.motorola.com)
on: Thu Jul 6 06:29:09 EDT 2000
Nick, interesting that u brought this up. Guru is also reckoned by some by a beat and counting seven fingers, as an alternative to the clockwise rotation of the right fist. There r a few who use the slower version of the latter to show an abbreviated KP, when the piece is fast enough eg kaanadaa tillana - that's what I meant earlier. The KP ( kakapadam ) consists of 1 beat, 1 Krishya ( waving the hand towards left for 4 aksharams - can be counted as u have mentioned ), 1 sarpini ( waving the hand towards right / counting - 4 aksharams ) & 1 pathaka ( raising the hand vertically/ counting - 4 aksharams ) OR alternatively, beant, pathaka, krishya, sarpini ( the order u have gvn above ). Similarly there r multiple ways of reckoning the plutam as well. These kriyas are found only in the marga talas ( if I remember right ) and are almost obsolete.
- From: S (@ wwwgate1.motorola.com)
on: Thu Jul 6 06:29:25 EDT 2000
Nick, interesting that u brought this up. Guru is also reckoned by some by a beat and counting seven fingers, as an alternative to the clockwise rotation of the right fist. There r a few who use the slower version of the latter to show an abbreviated KP, when the piece is fast enough eg kaanadaa tillana - that's what I meant earlier. The KP ( kakapadam ) consists of 1 beat, 1 Krishya ( waving the hand towards left for 4 aksharams - can be counted as u have mentioned ), 1 sarpini ( waving the hand towards right / counting - 4 aksharams ) & 1 pathaka ( raising the hand vertically/ counting - 4 aksharams ) OR alternatively, beat, pathaka, krishya, sarpini ( the order u have gvn above ). Similarly there r multiple ways of reckoning the plutam as well. These kriyas are found only in the marga talas ( if I remember right ) and are almost obsolete.
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Thu Jul 6 10:29:56 EDT 2000
I wasn't too confident about the order of up down, left right in KP! We touch on these things about once a year when our teacher decides its time we caught up on some theory.
Guru as clockwise rotation seems impossible to me to actually know which beat is being counted!
- From: S (@ wwwgate2.motorola.com)
on: Fri Jul 7 04:26:21 EDT 2000
Nick, IMO the order is not important as long as the correct count is maintained. So also, Guru by counting imparts more granularity. FYI, some people also count all these angas ( that r multiples of 4 ) as eka talam on their right hand and count the number of such eka tala cycles with their left ! This style is also used to count 4 kaLai, 8 kaLai etc talas.
- From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk)
on: Fri Jul 7 06:42:13 EDT 2000
So essentially count the knocks after the claps.
In the hands of some performers who only indicate a beat in the talam as and when they feel like it this could be a hugely confusing anga!!
As an inferior mortal (beginner at all this) I so envy the experienced musician's ability to know where they are in the tala, with or without gestures.
Funny: anything arithmetic was always my worst subject. It is a good thing no-one told me how deeply numerical carnatic music is before I started or I wouldn't be here now!
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