Topic started by Vasu (@ 92.austin-06-07rs.tx.dial-access.att.net) on Sat May 6 09:13:22 .
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Here is the digression of discussion about raagapalana in ancient times. |
Responses:
- From: Vasu (@ 92.austin-06-07rs.tx.dial-access.att.net)
on: Sat May 6 09:16:09 EDT 2000
I recently got hold of a book "Ragam Tanam Pallavi: Evolution, Structure and Exposition" by Dr.M.B.Vedavalli. She explores the development of RTP over years and the book is information packed. Frankly I admit that I havent yet understood much, but those of you who were discussing about aalaapana can benefit from it. I will just briefly mention about whats given about aalaapana here:
Development of Raagaalapana paddhati:
1. Classified into pre-sangita sudha period, during sangita sudha, post sangita sudha, contemporary
2. She has quoted from Tamil works like "Panchamarabu" (1200 CE) written by arivanaar, the word used being "alatti" for aalaapana
3. The period of Sangita sudha starts around 1600 CE and is considered as an important stage in evolution of raaga aalaapana paddhati. This work was written by Raghunatha Nayak (King of Tanjore 1614-1628 CE). Another work during this time is Chaturdandi Prakaasika by Venkatamakhin (1620)
4. Raghunatha Nayak mentions six stages of aalaapana: Akshiptika, raagavardhini, vidaari, sthaayi, vartani, nyaasa. Each of these terms are explained with relevant quote of verses. (thats what I like!)
5. Post Sangita Sudha period (upto first half of 20th century): This should comprise that S, Nadopasaka and others discussing about "aalaapana during Trinity times".
6. Works mentioned are Sangita Saramrita of Tulaja, Sangita kaumudi, Sangita Sampradaya pradarshini.
7. Unfortunately i couldnt find references to trinity wrt aalaapana. my reasoning is probably the book is more objective rather than speculative.
8. Other parts of books describe tanam, pallavi and a list of popular pallavis are given. The bibliography is very exhaustive.
if you need any more info let me know.
thx
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.54.26.125)
on: Sat May 6 09:17:49 EDT 2000
raga alapana is probably at the core of
carnatic music. it is what brings out the
manodharma innate in any singer - one can
memorise reams and reams of kanakku swaras, but
with the raga rendering, it has to be original.
it has to suit the shareeram of the singer.
hardly any place for plagiarism here.
thanks,
ravi.
- From: suhas (@ 203.197.54.86)
on: Sat May 6 12:38:19 EDT 2000
My friend tells me that there is actually an English Pallavi.And no I dont mean a pallavi on Jesus(are there such pallavi's-there certainly are some hymns tuned to carnatic ragas),but a pallavi that actually has english lyrics.I think this is ridiculous or perhaps my friend is taking me for a ride.Will Laxman be kind enough to verify.
- From: S (@ wwwgate2.motorola.com)
on: Sun May 7 04:57:43 EDT 2000
Vasu, Thanks for posting some excerpts on raga aalaapana from the book on RTP ( rtp also deserves a separate thread btw ). If I remember right, RRI's book on history of south indian music also makes mention of akshiptika, ragavardhini etc. I do not have RRI handy, only the shlokas on these stages of elaboration. Shall check chaturdandiprakashika, and post if I find something that may interest the grp. Ravi, though ur take on rote-learned swaras is well taken, even alapana phrases can be cliched, unoriginal, mechanical etc in the hands of a lesser artiste. While on alapana, nagaswaram music has also influenced the technique. Also, GNB's multi stage alapana suites for his RTPs are instructive in how scale based alapanas should be built tier on tier, note by note. MDR's alapanas, though relatively short, bring out the bhava aspect well ( so also Semmangudi's ), and also show the sensitivity MDR had to svarasthanasuddham. Suhas, there is an english javali - it goes 'oh my lovely' or something !
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.54.26.125)
on: Sun May 7 05:11:13 EDT 2000
S,
semmangudi's raga, i think, was extensively
influenced by nagaswaram, and specifically
rajarathnam pillai.
infact, iyervAL's long sancharas are very
reminiscent of a typical nagaswara rendition.
that's what makes it so captivating.
i feel that the nagaswara technique, which is so
very different from GNB's sOpAna method, has
a much better appeal in terms of classical
value.
- From: S (@ wwwgate32.motorola.com)
on: Sun May 7 23:42:10 EDT 2000
Ravi,
SSI's style has also undergone change, in keeping with the general changing trends in our music - in his earlier days ( u could hear his 78 rpm navasiddhi pettralum released in the early 1930-s ) he used more of short phrases, compared to lengthy akara passages in alapana he used later. SSI himself remarks while commenting on the changes our music has undergone, that earlier, the stacatto phrases were due to veena influence. SSI has talked highly about nagaswaram masters on several occasions. You write "the nagaswara technique, which is so
very different from GNB's sOpAna method" - I differ here. GNB's alapana technique has also borrowed a lot from nagaswaram technique; this has been written about by a lot of people including his disciple Sri Kalyanaraman - this can also be observed when one listens to his recordings. BTW, GNB and TNR were very good friends.
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.54.26.125)
on: Mon May 8 03:11:44 EDT 2000
S,
you are right.
what i actually wanted to highlight was that just
like how SSI weaved spectacular patterns in the
nagaswaram pattern, GNB invented a new method
altogether - the sOpAna method where he used to
elaborate a raga swara by swara and which is still
in vogue.
i have heard the short rAgam that he has sung before
navasiddhi petrAlum - you are right about the
veena influence there.
in fact, some of the sangathis that GNB used to use
in rAgas like kalyAni and tOdi were so inspired
by nAgaswaram - you will find almost every new
singer try to recreate some of those magical
sangathis.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp19.buffnet.net)
on: Tue May 9 01:34:40 EDT 2000
>>> you will find almost every new
singer try to recreate some of those magical
sangathis.<<<
This is mighty interesting. Would the SSI/TMT line shishyas also try the GNB sangatis ? ( or students of other lines )
The related question is , of course, how much do the performers listen to each other ? If raagaalaapana is improved ( maybe in CM, by awareness of more krities ? ), then this may be happening. If it is not krities, say for example Hemavati, then originality is well tested. Many live phrases from MD's Kantimati formula infiltrate alaapana of weaker artistes.
I have heard SanjaySubr. and possibly also VijaySiva 'imitate' ( or try to ) GNB renditions as exercises, presumably memorised at the expense of the 'rewind' button on their tape players.
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.54.26.125)
on: Tue May 9 01:58:28 EDT 2000
nado,
there are two issues that you have raised here;
1. is it ok for these singers to "imitate" GNB?
(or for that matter, any other singer)
2. is it ok for one to follow some of the "live"
phrases that occur in krithis and use them in rAgAlApana?
manodharma in CM is part innovation and majority
kELvi gnyAnam (lakshyam). so, if one tends to listen
to a particular singer a lot, then unknowingly certain
sangathis permeate and settle in our subconscience.
whenever we try to render a rAga ourselves, the
cumulative effect of our manodharma and our kELvi gnyAnam
is what comes out.
so, it is ok for singers to sing "SOME" sangathis
like GNB - assuming the rest of the concert bears
some originality atleast.
now for the krithi part.
many musical teachers advise their students to
adhere to the krithi while rendering rAgAs.
this is especially true of novices who are relatively
new to manodharma sangeetham.
this is fully justified also because the krithi is
always a well researched and embellished outcome
of the composer's manodharmam and is hence a perfect
representative of the rAga in which it is set in - with
due exceptions ofcourse(which is a topic for another thread!).
this is true of professionals also.
in fact, MSS has sung a bhairavi in which she starts
it like viriboni (SAA R N D).
many people start kalyani with the classic nidhi chala
opener (GA DAA PAA..) and some people even start
todi with the kaddanu phrase (MA NI PA DAA).
so, i think is it perfectly valid to use phrases
from the krithi in singing.
the argument does not hold however if one starts
singing the krithis in akAram and calls it
rAgAm :-)
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp19.buffnet.net)
on: Tue May 9 02:49:58 EDT 2000
I appreciate your careful response, Ravikiran. Just to be clear, would SSI ask one of his students to check out the GNB sangatis ? Perhaps that is an unintended provocation. Let me rephrase. Would GNB ask his students to incorporate others phrases in their alaapana ? Maybe there are no clear rules, except 'to thine own self be true'. There are some personality issues here as well, probably. I know, for example, that several musicians used to descend ( or is it ascend ) to the Dhanammal household weekly to get the most accurate javalis and certain rare krities.
I agree that the great krities are universal vehicles to climb to the ragas heights. The vaggeyakaras vision clearly transcends the pettiness of signatures, ego and even language and grants us this boon.
- From: narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Tue May 9 02:53:01 EDT 2000
Nado:
>>I have heard SanjaySubr. and possibly also VijaySiva 'imitate' ( or try to ) GNB renditions as exercises, presumably memorised at the expense of the 'rewind' button on their tape players. <<
There are two ways by which one gets a good knowledge of Raga development. One is by learning more krithis on that raga and other by listening to others sing. IMHO, listening to GNB's tapes and trying to get good sangathis out of it is acceptable for sure...and with Sanjay and Vijay's calibre i would not use the term "memorise" but instead use the term "improvise". I know many senior vidhwans who have plenty of tapes on Ragas. This leading vidhwan (cant name in public) has tapes on many ragas (one tape for each) where he has raga sketches performed by artists like Rajarathinam Pillai, Semangudi, GNB, Musiri, Ramnad Krishnan etc. The idea is to create a new bani or to get the best out of the raga and not to imitate or copy.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp19.buffnet.net)
on: Tue May 9 03:22:46 EDT 2000
Narayanan, I use the term memorise, specifically for the practise tapes ( by NVS or SS ) I remember hearing of the classic alaapana by GNB as the Kalayami ST prelude. As I said , it was an exercise. Certainly a guru must indoctrinate to his style, but it is the shishyas prerogative also to choose certain gurus and banis.
Of course we are all expected to come as close as possible to the original intent of the vaggeyakaras during krities. And many ideas of the performers you mention are also highly imaginative and worthy of emulation.
Do the performers show up in person for their contemporaries performances, generally ? At the Cleveland TygAra, for example, Ramani was always in the front row for all the important concerts, often nodding encouragement. But he may have been a bit captive in the US, or else was adhering to the Aradhanas core ideals. It would have helped sometimes, since there were quite a few SimhendraMadhyamams at the Ara. one after the other ( although MaduraiSundars version was more like SimhendraPanchamam, just kidding )
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