Topic started by Vasu (@ 92.austin-06-07rs.tx.dial-access.att.net) on Sat May 6 09:13:22 .
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Here is the digression of discussion about raagapalana in ancient times. |
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: narayanan (@ 195.224.238.98)
on: Tue May 9 03:46:38 EDT 2000
Nado:
>.Do the performers show up in person for their contemporaries performances, generally ?<<
Yes today's musicians do. You can see Vijay Siva, Sriramkumar, Sanjay, Sowmya, Unni and other young artists regularly at Srinivasa Sastri Hall while other artists are performing. I would say that the current generation does not have that much "Ego" compared to those from the previous generation. :--)))
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.54.26.125)
on: Tue May 9 08:29:47 EDT 2000
i have started a thread for neraval singing.
- From: RAM (@ 149.123.110.57)
on: Thu May 25 13:59:20 EDT 2000
HI
WHEN I WAS READING THE ABOVE RESPONSES, SOMETHING CAME TO MY MIND. MY TEACHER USED TO TELL ME THAT, YOU SHOULD LEARN RAGA ALAPANAI, FROM NADASWARAM PLAYERS AND SINGING TANAM FROM THE VEENA PLAYERS.
AND HE LEFT ME THERE HANGING.
AND HE GOT AWAY WITH IT!
RAM
- From: Diwakar (@ 206.175.177.136)
on: Thu May 25 14:32:45 EDT 2000
Ram :
Can you please avoid all caps? It is tougher to read. Sorry, no offence meant. :-)
- From: RAM (@ 149.123.110.57)
on: Fri May 26 08:23:06 EDT 2000
Sorry.
I will use small letters. I forgot to release the key.
Ram
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp50.buffnet.net)
on: Fri May 26 08:44:03 EDT 2000
Just a digression. I occasionally blow up Word files to font size 20 or such so that I can view them while slumped backward, maybe 2 metres away from the screen, contemplating both the file and my navel. On returning to normal view (say 1/2 a metre from the screen or to standard font ( say 12 size ) there is a considerable adjustment period for the eyes. My eyesight is normal too.
Anyway, is Ram suggesting that vocal teachers abdicate responsibility for 'alaapana teaching' by referring students to the instrumentalists. Maybe there can be no formal 'teaching' of this aspect and these instruments offer some unique insights into the raaga prayogas. It is interesting that an instrumental sound would provide this. I am not aware if the Shehnai is considered similarly in HM.
- From: RAM (@ 149.123.110.57)
on: Fri May 26 12:35:22 EDT 2000
Hi
I take full responsibility for what I wrote. That was not a general note. What my teacher meant was, by listening to the Nadaswara vidwans and Veena players, you can cultivate your manodharma.
I find also, that is true.
RAM
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp11.buffnet.net)
on: Wed May 31 12:00:59 EDT 2000
The MD shri kriti Tyaagaraaja Mahaadhwajaaroha uses the words Nagaswaram Maddaladi Vadyam. Is this Nagaswaram the same as the Nada-swaram ? The snake-charmers use some kind of shehnai ( although it is more motion than sound ) in their activities.
I notice that both RaviKiran and S above use 'Nagaswaram'.
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 210.214.123.122)
on: Wed May 31 15:40:44 EDT 2000
nado:
i was told by srikantan mama that the correct usage is nagaswaram. it does not refer to the snake charmer's instrument.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp43.buffnet.net)
on: Wed May 31 18:02:57 EDT 2000
RaviKiran, From what I remember of the snake-charmers their instrument was a long pipe with a large protuberance, like a tumor, along the way. Maybe this is called a 'been' ? Anyway Naga-swaram , Nagaswaravali, Nagavarali , Pun-Naga-Varali etc. do seem like pretty old names, probably older than Nagaland.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp26.buffnet.net)
on: Thu Jun 1 09:23:52 EDT 2000
In the context of modern raagaalaapana, accompanying violinists always get center stage, though sometimes abbreviated, to project their ideas. Are they supposed to highlight the preceding vocal/other efforts during this ? Or do they set the tone for the subsequent kriti ? Are there any known concerts where another instrument, say the veena or flute, was used for kutchery accompaniment.
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.144.29.21)
on: Thu Jun 1 13:30:04 EDT 2000
nado:
i have a dwaram venkataswami naidu violin solo tape where the veena has accompanied him.
i must say it is a treat listening to it.
i feel they make a very good combination.
i have also read that in the olden days, veena used to be an accompaniment in vocal concerts.
- From: S (@ wwwgate2.motorola.com)
on: Fri Jun 2 04:39:15 EDT 2000
>>>I notice that both RaviKiran and S above use 'Nagaswaram'.<<<
Nado, the colloquial ( and more popular ) usage is nadaswaram. Many musicians have opined that nagaswaram is more correct. An apocryphal tale on the origin of this instrument as per TNR is found at www.clickcarnatica.com/tribmain.html !!
There have been some experimental contemporary concerts with veenai or flute as accompaniments. Silappadikaram of yore has mentioned flute and yazh as accompaniments to the voice.
- From: P.Ghanesun (@ rr-165-122-161.atl.mediaone.net)
on: Sat Jun 3 09:13:35 EDT 2000
As we know, violin is not our native instrument. It is of European origin. Yaazh ,Veenai and Flute must have been the earliest choices.
Regards
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.144.29.21)
on: Mon Jun 5 14:14:23 EDT 2000
i am interested in knowing about the kaakali nishaada prayoga in kalyaani.
earlier raaga aalapanaas did not have a nyaasa ni but i think post-GNB era saw it in increased usage.
i remember vidushi vedavalli mentioning that no krithi contains a nyaasa nishadham and hence it is a rogue-sanchaara!!
i would like ur comments on this.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp9.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Jun 5 15:02:35 EDT 2000
Just to refresh , nyaasa means stopping or ending note of a phrase ? Perhaps an irreproducible brika related facet. Hmmm... there may be one GNB kriti, though, in Kalyani, KamalasiniTatvasini ? (not sure of this). Maybe this carries this feature ?
- From: Ramaprasad K V (@ 204.154.176.49)
on: Mon Jun 5 15:15:29 EDT 2000
I know one "KamalAsini sundari" of GNB in KalyAni.
I don't notice a nishAda nyasa there.
- Ramaprasad K V
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp45.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Jun 5 15:58:22 EDT 2000
Ni is also nyaasa in Sankarabharana. Inspite of this this do S'Bharana krities also avoid this usage ? Hamsadhwani is another to be considered.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ afppp42.buffnet.net)
on: Mon Jun 5 17:31:00 EDT 2000
ni ga ri ni may be a common Hamsadhwani phrase ?
- From: S (@ wwwgate32.motorola.com)
on: Tue Jun 6 01:13:04 EDT 2000
Ravi,
>>>earlier raaga aalapanaas did not have a nyaasa ni but i think post-GNB era saw it in increased usage.
i remember vidushi vedavalli mentioning that no krithi contains a nyaasa nishadham and hence it is a
rogue-sanchaara!! <<<
I believe it is the nagaswaram influence. It is interesting to note that the very popular Adi tALa varNam vanajAkshirO has a 6 aksharam sress on the nishadam in both its charaNam and one of its chiTTai swaram. Many feel that this is an ancient varnam; actually it is of relatively recent vintage, composed by nagaswara vidwan veeraswami pillai ( who lived in the early half of the 20th century; senior to GNB, though ). My point is that it is not GNB who started the trend of stressing the nishadam. This got popular, and we even see the anupallavi of bhajarErEcitta ( MD ) having a ni-nyAsa phrase in the anupallavi in some renditions - so also in tarangampADi panch. iyer's birAnabrOva idE.
Another aspect frowned on is the pa ( and sa ) varjya prayOga-s; but here, the classic kalyANi aTa tALa varNam vanajAkshi of pallavi gOpAlayyar ( who was a disciple of pachimirium aadiappayyar of viribONi fame ) has occurences of these prayOga-s etched into it.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp95.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Jun 6 10:26:21 EDT 2000
Based on 'Meladhikaralakshana' or others, Kalyani is supposed to have 'ni' as nyaasa. The occurrence of this only in a recent composition (Vanajakshiro seems to be (mis)attributed to RamanathapuramSI as well ? ) , that too a varnam is odd, although varnams may be the place where aesthetics play less of a role. Did Vedavalli mamis statement extend to Padams as well ?
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.144.29.21)
on: Tue Jun 6 14:40:04 EDT 2000
nado:
>>>Ni is also nyaasa in Sankarabharana..<<<
ASFAIK, the ni is not nyasa in sankara..
also, i have not heard any krithi in which the ni was nyasa in shanka.
as far as kalyaani is concerned, vedavalli maami was referring only to krithis.
if one hears the older renditions of kvn, he never stays on the ni, but uses it just as a reaching note to the thaara shadjam.
in his later concerts, i remember him singing a nyaasa ni however.
vedavalli maami also told me that muktha amma would sing just 2 minutes of kalyaani - but in it would be encapsulated the essence of kalyaani, sans the nyaasa kaakali ni.
ofcourse, almost all modern delineations of this raagam dwell extensively on the nishaadam - most of the panchama varjya sanchaaras are done usually while being nyaasa at this ni.
this looks like a contribution of yamun kalyaani.
- From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.144.29.21)
on: Wed Jun 7 13:37:31 EDT 2000
i need a clarification:
are 'raaga shri' and 'shree raagam' both the same.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp43.buffnet.net)
on: Wed Jun 7 14:43:43 EDT 2000
Ravikiran, there is also raaga named 'rageshri' and the raaga named 'sriraga' to consider. The second may satisfy the Katapayadi scheme.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aippp12.buffnet.net)
on: Thu Jun 8 22:05:00 EDT 2000
Ravikiran, I think the stress on nyaasa ni in alaapana is linked to the absence of a kriti with such a prayoga. As audiences grew more savvy, alaapanas may have had to find phrases/constructs that were not, i.e. distinctly not, available in standard forms of widespread kritis. Kalyani, especially is quite well worked over the ages and such methods would help to keep the appetite whetted. Observe too that a 2 minute encapsulation is also possible ! It should be interesting to see if these 'newer' prayogas ( within the stipulations for the raaga ) emerge in recent krities.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp20.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Jun 13 15:43:31 EDT 2000
I have a question about two MD krities and nyaasa swara. The krities are Mahaganapathim Manasa and Mahaganapatim Vande. Based on the MD annotation ( i.e. whatever sangatis MD prescribed ) what are the swaras for these two phrases. No need for the entire pallavis. I am interested in seeing how the MD sangatis ( not an artistes conception ) use the non-nyaasa and nyaasa swaras of Todi for the first 2-3 words of each of these krities. I am not sure if KSI's book has the musical annotation. ( MD may have possibly 1-2, maybe 3 sangatis ?? for each pallavi ?? ) Thanks very much.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp20.buffnet.net)
on: Tue Jun 13 15:44:58 EDT 2000
oops that is non-nyaasa and nyaasa swaras of Nata and Todi respectively.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp27.buffnet.net)
on: Wed Jun 14 16:38:48 EDT 2000
As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on the best instrument to accompany the human voice. The violin's slow but inexorable dominance has all but pushed out such a role by other instruments. Its capacity to handle the gamakas and ranges is obviously vast but I think it also effects the vocalist, maybe even subtly over the course of years. Many times it can subvert a kutchery and also challenge the vocalist. I can't put my finger on it well and it doesnt help that other sounds are not used anymore to get a good comparison, even vainikas have meekly stepped aside. Hopefully some one with teh MD books will post the swaras of the krities above. Thanks.
- From: S (@ wwwgate32.motorola.com)
on: Thu Jun 15 00:10:36 EDT 2000
Nado, this regards ur comments on the MD mahaaganapatim kritis and the mahaaganapate ( natanarayani ). It is interesting to see that these three kritis commence on the swara ma ( making for a swarakshara ). Also, one can imagine a sort of swarakshara for the next syllable ( ha ) in these. While the natanarayani piece starts with m g, r g s r, ( syllable haa maps on to swara ga ), the naattai piece starts as m p, m g m r, ( haa -> pa : this is a very indirect swarakshara IMO but I mention it since I remember reading in Sambamurthy's book that this can be viewed as a swarakshara ). The todi piece starting is sort of difficult to notate without proper s/w for indicating double speed swaras, gamaka-s etc - it also starts on swara ma and the syllable ha starts on pa and ends on ga. These r the versions I have learnt, and books may have variants of this version.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp71.buffnet.net)
on: Thu Jun 15 00:54:56 EDT 2000
S, thanks greatly. Part of the reason for my trying to find out MD's presriptions vis a vis the nyaasa swaras of Nata and Todi, is this bee I have in my bonnet about the MD Ganapati krities. I think no two make the same address and Mahagana-pa-thim manasa, Mahagana-pa-thim Vande and am trying to see if the musical notation supports this, maybe by including a nyaasa swara ( in all repetitions ) on one of the 'thim' syllables. This way the individuality of the two addresses is preserved.
It is indeed a pleasure to realise the swarakshara aspect you point out, somewhat serendipitously ( for me , at least ).
- From: S (@ wwwgate1.motorola.com)
on: Thu Jun 15 00:58:37 EDT 2000
Nado, the swarakshara coincidence is also there in srimahaganapatiravatumam where ma and haa map on to ma and pa. Additionally, the srI starts from sa and oscillates on ri ( so sri-> swara ri )
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